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Featured Death before the age of accountability

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by AndThisGospel, Jan 14, 2017.

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  1. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    So you're conceding that God wanted sin to occur?
     
    #161 StefanM, Jan 24, 2017
  2. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    God took the chance?

    Are you sure you want to use those words?

    How weak is your god if he is just playing yahtzee with his creation?

    God doesn't play chance. God knew his creation would rebel. He knew man would sin. He knew he would redeem a chosen people. He knew all this before any creation even existed. He lives all this simultaneously because God is not bound by time.
     
    #162 MennoSota, Jan 25, 2017
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  3. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    Sin is a deceiver. "The love of self" sounds wonderful, but when put into practice it bring misery and death.

    On paper, if you will, Lucifer's love of self sounded wonderful. Instead of living for others, with no thought of self, Lucifer came up with a the concept of self-love, what the Bible calls iniquity. Iniquity is our bent-to-self. Iniquity and agape are polar opposites.

    In order to unmask Lucifer's self-love God had to allow it to develop.

    Looked around lately? How's self-love working for you?
     
    #163 AndThisGospel, Jan 25, 2017
  4. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    Okay, how about this: God knew that Lucifer would eventually rebel against Him and His agape and seek to establish his u-turn agape. He knew that others would join him in his rebellion. He knew that Lucifer, turned Satan, would deceive Eve and thereby get Adam. He knew that once he got Adam he would pollute and ruin the human race with his love of self.

    Yes, God could have simply not created Lucifer, but would that have been the end of it? Apparently not. So instead of sweeping this issue under the rug God took it head on. If not God would have needed controls - He would have needed to create robots.

    Nevertheless, before there was sin there was a Savior. Salvation was not an after thought.
     
    #164 AndThisGospel, Jan 25, 2017
  5. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    You are struggling with the fact that God exists outside of time. That means that all aspects of time are happening at the same moment with God. Lucifer, Mount Sanai, the Cross, Presidential elections, Christ's return, they all happen simultaneously with God.

    There is no future or no past.
     
    #165 MennoSota, Jan 25, 2017
  6. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    You've been watching too many Twilight Zone reruns....

    Lets get back to the Bible so we can be grounded in truth instead hyperbole.
     
    #166 AndThisGospel, Jan 25, 2017
  7. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    The question is not whether sin/iniqiuity is bad. It's about God's desire for it to exist (at least at some point, even if only temporarily).

    What would be the point for an omniscient, omnipotent deity to allow something to develop that would not otherwise develop solely in order to demonstrate that it's a bad thing? If other motives are in play, that's a different matter, but if it's just about making a point on self-love or sin, it's kind of silly.
     
    #167 StefanM, Jan 25, 2017
  8. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    I know this wasn't in response to my post, but I wanted to make a comment.

    It's going to come down to philosophy on some level, no matter what. The Bible doesn't give any clear-cut explanations for some of these questions. Verses touching on the topics are highly contextual, and, as a result, may even seem contradictory when juxtaposed outside their contexts.
     
    #168 StefanM, Jan 25, 2017
  9. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    You really don't grasp God's sovereignty, do you.
    You are making your god in your image. You see God as limited, like you are.
     
    #169 MennoSota, Jan 25, 2017
  10. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    You will have to show me, from the Bible, that God desires for sin to exist. Yes?
     
    #170 AndThisGospel, Jan 25, 2017
  11. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    God is love. The Greek word for "love" is agape. Do you know what that means?
     
    #171 AndThisGospel, Jan 25, 2017
  12. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    Not really. It's the logical conclusion, given certain premises.

    If God:
    1) Is omniscient (including exhaustive foreknowledge)
    2) Is omnipotent
    3) Allows sin to exist

    Then the logical conclusion is that he, at some level, wanted sin to exist in the world. Otherwise, why would a being who had the ability to predict and to stop any possible sin from ever occurring permit it to happen?

    You can add to the conclusion by providing reasons for why he might want sin to exist, but the conclusion is valid.
     
    #172 StefanM, Jan 25, 2017
  13. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Yes God is love, but God is also so much more.

    Unconditional love does not eliminate sovereign ruler, merciful king, all perfect judge, etc...

    Unconditional love does not force God to live in his created timeline and not reside outside of time.

    God is sovereign. God is far beyond what our finite minds can comprehend. That was God's message to Job and it is his message to us.
     
    #173 MennoSota, Jan 25, 2017
  14. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    Great...I'm happy for you, but there's a problem. You've made God a devil. That's blasphemy.
     
    #174 AndThisGospel, Jan 25, 2017
  15. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    That's your interpretation of it.
     
    #175 StefanM, Jan 25, 2017
  16. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    God is agape. This isn't speaking of an attribute, but who He is.
     
    #176 AndThisGospel, Jan 25, 2017
  17. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    There's no interpretation. You stated that God desired sin. The Bible doesn't substantiate your claim. Therefore you are making God the author of sin.
     
    #177 AndThisGospel, Jan 25, 2017
  18. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    Yes He is...and in His sovereignty He has allowed "the love of self" (iniquity) to develop so that all intelligent beings throughout His universe can witness the results of setting aside God's agape love in favor of fallen Lucifer's self-love.
     
    #178 AndThisGospel, Jan 25, 2017
  19. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    "This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all."
     
    #179 AndThisGospel, Jan 25, 2017
  20. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    Because God is sovereign and because He as temporarily allowed iniquity to develop, God has assumed the blame for sin as if He did these things Himself. He does this until "the day of atonement".

    Principle: God sees and describes Himself as doing what He does not prevent.

    "The anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel and He moved David . . . to . . . number Israel and Judah (2 Sam. 24:2).
     
    #180 AndThisGospel, Jan 25, 2017
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