Featured What Was Adam Pre-Fall

I believe our nature is the "flesh" or "natural". These are the words Scripture uses for the spirit that is of Adam (contrasted with the Spirit of God).

 

Speaking ontologically I am saying that there is no difference between Adam pre and post fall with the exception that his eyes were open and he became "like God" in knowing good and evil.

 

Are you serious?

Look through my posts and count how many times I have said that I believe Adam was created flesh, with a physical body, a soul and a spirit. It was over 10 times this week. I even discussed this with a few members (@Reformed and @Van come to mind) who hold to man having two rather than three components.

We disagree and that is fine. But I really do not know how you come up with some of the things you say about other people and their beliefs as they have stated them.

The issue is you are poking around with wild ideas (like @Iconoclast has done) perhaps hoping that if you say it enough people may buy into the idea. We have to treat one another honestly. Ask before you imply about my views (or anyone else). Don't be an Iconoclast.

@davidtaylorjr , if you missed my argument that Adam was created with a physical body, a human spirit and a soul then let me know and I can either point you to the places or we can discuss it.

 

I do not believe Adam was dead in sin prior to the Fall. The term "dead in sin", IMHO, refers to the state of man who are in bondage of sin and death. We cannot apply this to Adam any more than we can apply having the indwelling of the Spirit (spiritual life) to Adam.

I believe that God created Adam as natural man (as opposed to spiritual man). First comes the natural (the flesh) and then the spiritual (the Last Adam becomes a life-giving spirit). So Adam, natural man, was created without sin (God did not create sin). Adam allowed the temptations of the flesh (the appeal of the fruit) to birth sin (see Jame's explanation of sin).

The result was that Adam was still natural man, but his eyes were opened and he "became like God knowing good and evil". Because of sin death entered into the world and spread to all men (natural man became enslaved to the law of sin and death).

 

I see what you are saying, but no. It is actually neither because the term cannot be applied pre-Fall.

Consider these questions pre-fall: Was Adam sealed with the Spirit? Did Adam have the Spirit indwelling in him? Did Adam have everlasting life? Had Christ become a "life giving Spirit"? Did Adam have "Christ in him"? Was Adam of the "imperishable seed"? No. He was not. We cannot say Adam had "spiritual life" because this life refers to the "rebirth".

Was Adam "spiritually dead"? In a biblical sense, you could say he was. Adam did not possess "spiritual life". But at the same time pre-fall death had not entered the world. The thing is Adam's spirit never died. He was created natural man (1 Corinthians 15) not spiritual man. It seems to skirt the issue because the question is invalid. The question itself skirts Scripture.

 

Yes, probably does.

Are you familiar with John Piper?

Piper refers to himself as a 7 point Calvinist. The last two points are double predestination and the best of all possible worlds.

I believe that we are living in the best of all possible worlds. I base this on faith in the nature of God. We may not see this in our lifetime but I believe that God governs the course of history so that his glory will be more fully displayed than would have been in any other possible circumstances. This does not necessitate my view that Adam was created natural man (not spiritual), but it does support the context. I believe Adam was created natural man and placed in the Garden, God knowing without a doubt that natural man would miss the mark, Adam's sin was a part of God's plan. It was always about the Redeemer, not about man but about Christ as the Firstborn.

That is part of the presuppositions I hold, and again while this is not the reason I hold my view it is one support.