What Was Adam Pre-Fall

[Yeshua1]

I do not think we can use that term. Spiritual death (IMHO) is the absence of the indwelling of the Spirit but at the same time it has a sence of being in bondage to the law of sin and death (sin as a master).

I believe Adam had a human spirit (that which is common to natural man). So while I believe the term may not apply I guess technically it would be the same spirit.

I believe that sin, not the human spirit, is what separates God from man.

Do we have a sin nature? is the Spirit aspect dead in us until it gets reborn again?

 

[JonC]

Do we have a sin nature? is the Spirit aspect dead in us until it gets reborn again?

I believe our nature is the "flesh" or "natural". These are the words Scripture uses for the spirit that is of Adam (contrasted with the Spirit of God).

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe our nature is the "flesh" or "natural". These are the words Scripture uses for the spirit that is of Adam (contrasted with the Spirit of God).

Do we have an immaterial aspect to us that sets us against God?

 

[Reformed1689]

I believe our nature is the "flesh" or "natural". These are the words Scripture uses for the spirit that is of Adam (contrasted with the Spirit of God).

I am now very confused on your position. It is almost as if you seem to say that there is no difference between pre-fall Adam and post-fall Adam.

 

[Yeshua1]

I am now very confused on your position. It is almost as if you seem to say that there is no difference between pre-fall Adam and post-fall Adam.

or that we even have something called a soul/spirit!

 

[JonC]

I am now very confused on your position. It is almost as if you seem to say that there is no difference between pre-fall Adam and post-fall Adam.

Speaking ontologically I am saying that there is no difference between Adam pre and post fall with the exception that his eyes were open and he became "like God" in knowing good and evil.

 

[JonC]

or that we even have something called a soul/spirit!

Are you serious?

Look through my posts and count how many times I have said that I believe Adam was created flesh, with a physical body, a soul and a spirit. It was over 10 times this week. I even discussed this with a few members (@Reformed and @Van come to mind) who hold to man having two rather than three components.

We disagree and that is fine. But I really do not know how you come up with some of the things you say about other people and their beliefs as they have stated them.

I do not know of a Christian theology that rejects man as having a spirit (or at least a soul, people have made various distinctions here).

In Ezekiel God says He will remove man's old heart and give him a new one, give him a new spirit, put His Spirit in them. This implies a human spirit replaced with God's Spirit (a new birth).

. But as far as I know all Christians hold that "the flesh" speaks of spirit (a human spirit, "of the flesh") and not just literal (biological) flesh and bones.

Is there anyone who believes man has no spirit or soul (that man is just a "lump of flesh"?
.

I made that post a long time ago emphasizing the contrast Paul made on 1 Cor. 15 (contrasting "the flesh" and "the spirit") . Adam was made flesh (which is a body and spirit and/ or soul). Christ became a "life giving Spirit" ).

I believe Adam was created "flesh". Not just biologically but in a biblical context. A body and spirit (I believe body, spirit, and soul). When Scripture speaks of people being "flesh" or "of the flesh" it is not implying the absence of a spirit or soul.

I have always affirmed man as having a spirit. In the Bible "flesh" includes a human spirit. I believe man is body, soul, and spirit.

I am not familiar with those you speak of who believe man does not have a spirit. I cannot contribute to that.

Yes. I view the soul as who we are, the spirit as what we are, and the body as where we are.

Thus far every one who has contributed to the thread has answered without hesitation - yes, man has a spirit.

The issue is you are poking around with wild ideas (like @Iconoclast has done) perhaps hoping that if you say it enough people may buy into the idea. We have to treat one another honestly. Ask before you imply about my views (or anyone else). Don't be an Iconoclast.

@davidtaylorjr , if you missed my argument that Adam was created with a physical body, a human spirit and a soul then let me know and I can either point you to the places or we can discuss it.

 

[Reformed1689]

Speaking ontologically I am saying that there is no difference between Adam pre and post fall with the exception that his eyes were open and he became "like God" in knowing good and evil.

So Adam was dead in sin prior to the fall? I'm not trying to trick you into a corner, I'm really trying to understand where you are coming from.

 

[JonC]

So Adam was dead in sin prior to the fall? I'm not trying to trick you into a corner, I'm really trying to understand where you are coming from.

I do not believe Adam was dead in sin prior to the Fall. The term "dead in sin", IMHO, refers to the state of man who are in bondage of sin and death. We cannot apply this to Adam any more than we can apply having the indwelling of the Spirit (spiritual life) to Adam.

I believe that God created Adam as natural man (as opposed to spiritual man). First comes the natural (the flesh) and then the spiritual (the Last Adam becomes a life-giving spirit). So Adam, natural man, was created without sin (God did not create sin). Adam allowed the temptations of the flesh (the appeal of the fruit) to birth sin (see Jame's explanation of sin).

The result was that Adam was still natural man, but his eyes were opened and he "became like God knowing good and evil". Because of sin death entered into the world and spread to all men (natural man became enslaved to the law of sin and death).

 

[Reformed1689]

I do not believe Adam was dead in sin prior to the Fall. The term "dead in sin", IMHO, refers to the state of man who are in bondage of sin and death. We cannot apply this to Adam any more than we can apply having the indwelling of the Spirit (spiritual life) to Adam.

I believe that God created Adam as natural man (as opposed to spiritual man). First comes the natural (the flesh) and then the spiritual (the Last Adam becomes a life-giving spirit). So Adam, natural man, was created without sin (God did not create sin). Adam allowed the temptations of the flesh (the appeal of the fruit) to birth sin (see Jame's explanation of sin).

The result was that Adam was still natural man, but his eyes were opened and he "became like God knowing good and evil". Because of sin death entered into the world and spread to all men (natural man became enslaved to the law of sin and death).

To me, this explanation seems to actually try and skirt the issue. Adam wasn't spiritually dead before the fall, but not spiritually alive either? You can't have it both ways. Was he just in a state of limbo?

 

[JonC]

To me, this explanation seems to actually try and skirt the issue. Adam wasn't spiritually dead before the fall, but not spiritually alive either? You can't have it both ways. Was he just in a state of limbo?

I see what you are saying, but no. It is actually neither because the term cannot be applied pre-Fall.

Consider these questions pre-fall: Was Adam sealed with the Spirit? Did Adam have the Spirit indwelling in him? Did Adam have everlasting life? Had Christ become a "life giving Spirit"? Did Adam have "Christ in him"? Was Adam of the "imperishable seed"? No. He was not. We cannot say Adam had "spiritual life" because this life refers to the "rebirth".

Was Adam "spiritually dead"? In a biblical sense, you could say he was. Adam did not possess "spiritual life". But at the same time pre-fall death had not entered the world. The thing is Adam's spirit never died. He was created natural man (1 Corinthians 15) not spiritual man. It seems to skirt the issue because the question is invalid. The question itself skirts Scripture.

 

[Reformed1689]

I see what you are saying, but no. It is actually neither because the term cannot be applied pre-Fall.

Consider these questions pre-fall: Was Adam sealed with the Spirit? Did Adam have the Spirit indwelling in him? Did Adam have everlasting life? Had Christ become a "life giving Spirit"? Did Adam have "Christ in him"? Was Adam of the "imperishable seed"? No. He was not. We cannot say Adam had "spiritual life" because this life refers to the "rebirth".

Was Adam "spiritually dead"? In a biblical sense, you could say he was. Adam did not possess "spiritual life". But at the same time pre-fall death had not entered the world. The thing is Adam's spirit never died. He was created natural man (1 Corinthians 15) not spiritual man. It seems to skirt the issue because the question is invalid. The question itself skirts Scripture.

Again, this goes to our disagreement on the definition of spiritual life.

 

[JonShaff]

Bottom Line--Scripture is clear, we are not being "restored back to Adam's pre-fallen state." We are being Transformed, from glory to glory, into Christ.

 

[JonC]

Again, this goes to our disagreement on the definition of spiritual life.

Yes, probably does.

Are you familiar with John Piper?

Piper refers to himself as a 7 point Calvinist. The last two points are double predestination and the best of all possible worlds.

I believe that we are living in the best of all possible worlds. I base this on faith in the nature of God. We may not see this in our lifetime but I believe that God governs the course of history so that his glory will be more fully displayed than would have been in any other possible circumstances. This does not necessitate my view that Adam was created natural man (not spiritual), but it does support the context. I believe Adam was created natural man and placed in the Garden, God knowing without a doubt that natural man would miss the mark, Adam's sin was a part of God's plan. It was always about the Redeemer, not about man but about Christ as the Firstborn.

That is part of the presuppositions I hold, and again while this is not the reason I hold my view it is one support.

 

[Yeshua1]

I see what you are saying, but no. It is actually neither because the term cannot be applied pre-Fall.

Consider these questions pre-fall: Was Adam sealed with the Spirit? Did Adam have the Spirit indwelling in him? Did Adam have everlasting life? Had Christ become a "life giving Spirit"? Did Adam have "Christ in him"? Was Adam of the "imperishable seed"? No. He was not. We cannot say Adam had "spiritual life" because this life refers to the "rebirth".

Was Adam "spiritually dead"? In a biblical sense, you could say he was. Adam did not possess "spiritual life". But at the same time pre-fall death had not entered the world. The thing is Adam's spirit never died. He was created natural man (1 Corinthians 15) not spiritual man. It seems to skirt the issue because the question is invalid. The question itself skirts Scripture.

Adam did not need to have the Holy Spirit indwelling Him pre fall, nor the messiah to die in his stead as of yet!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, probably does.

Are you familiar with John Piper?

Piper refers to himself as a 7 point Calvinist. The last two points are double predestination and the best of all possible worlds.

I believe that we are living in the best of all possible worlds. I base this on faith in the nature of God. We may not see this in our lifetime but I believe that God governs the course of history so that his glory will be more fully displayed than would have been in any other possible circumstances. This does not necessitate my view that Adam was created natural man (not spiritual), but it does support the context. I believe Adam was created natural man and placed in the Garden, God knowing without a doubt that natural man would miss the mark, Adam's sin was a part of God's plan. It was always about the Redeemer, not about man but about Christ as the Firstborn.

That is part of the presuppositions I hold, and again while this is not the reason I hold my view it is one support.

How glorious was Adam though before the fall? Coudl he not have been created higher then even the angels of God?

 

[37818]

. . . remain in a state of innocence and not die

Adam and Eve were also not immortal. The tree of life was available which would have changed that.

 

[37818]

How glorious was Adam though before the fall? Coudl he not have been created higher then even the angels of God?

No.

 

[Yeshua1]

Adam and Eve were also not immortal. The tree of life was available which would have changed that.

No sin, no death!

 

[Yeshua1]

No.

Why not, as Genesis seems to indicate that he was the pinnacle of the creation of God, said to be made in very image of God....