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Featured The problem of sin .

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Barry Johnson, Oct 30, 2020.

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  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    When are where does regeneration (being born anew, being made alive) occur? When we are placed into Christ, thus "together" with Christ we are made alive. Ephesians 2:5.

    Colossians 2:11
    and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

    Thus both the washing of regeneration and the circumcision of Christ occur after God places us "in Him." Now there are differing views as to exactly what is the "body of the flesh" but my view is it refers to our sin burden, what God held against us. Thus in Christ our sin burden is removed. See Romans 6:5-7.

    2 Corinthians 5:19 says God is "reconciling" not reconciled the world (humankind) to Himself. Thus when every individual (a member of the world) is placed into Christ, God is reconciling the world to Himself. And yes, once we have been placed into Christ, we have been, past tense, reconciled. But the reason we have the message of reconciliation is to help in bringing the lost to Christ to be reconciled. Only those placed in Christ have their sin burden removed, such that God no longer is "counting their trespasses against them."
     
    #61 Van, Nov 3, 2020
  2. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe we can have eternal life if any sin is counted against us. Other wise when we sin we would loose our Salvation. I believe all my sins past, present, and future, are paid for
    MB
     
    #62 MB, Nov 3, 2020
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  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yes, redeemed means being transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son. No one was placed into Christ to be washed by His blood, until after Christ died as the Lamb of God. Those who obtained approval beforehand, such as those listed in Hebrews 11, had to wait to be "made perfect" i.e. without having their sin burden. They waited in a place of comfort, Abraham's bosom until after Christ died and then they were made perfect. Hebrews 11:39-40.

    No, their OT saints sins were not removed when Christ died, they were removed when they were placed into Christ, where the washing of regeneration occurs. Christ's death provides the means of reconciliation, including the removal of the sin burden, but no one has the sin removed until they undergo the washing of regeneration which occurs when a person is individually placed into Christ. Redemption is in Christ, and thus no one is redeemed before they are placed in Christ.

    When we believe, if God alone credits our faith as righteousness, we are then transferred into Christ (our redemption) where we receive reconciliation. Romans 5:11

    All sin was not reconciled, those not saved will receive the wrath of God according to His perfect justice. If you are placed into Christ, your sins are reconciled. If you were not placed in Christ, even if you thought you put your faith and trust fully in Christ, you were not reconciled, you never "received" the reconciliation provided by Christ's death.

    Yes all our sins were taken out of the way, Colossians 2:13-14, but only when we were placed into Christ. Yes, this passage refers to what I refer to as our "sin burden" the decrees against us.

    To be saved is to be placed into Christ and receiving the reconciliation, and once in Christ yes we are then predestined to two things, to be conformed to the image of Christ and we are predestined to our bodily redemption at Christ's second coming.
     
    #63 Van, Nov 3, 2020
  4. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    You say //Yes all our sins were taken out of the way, Colossians 2:13-14, but only when we were placed into Christ. Yes, this passage refers to what I refer to as our "sin burden" the decrees against us.// But if they were taken away at the cross like the verse says ( nailed to the cross) Why do then say "but only when we were placed into Christ" ? it happened 2000 years ago surely , whilst we were yet sinners ? I'm not sure when you say ' sin burden '
     
    #64 Barry Johnson, Nov 3, 2020
  5. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    It says in 2cor 5.19 that God reconciled ( past tense ) the world to himself . Again 2000 years ago ?
     
    #65 Barry Johnson, Nov 3, 2020
  6. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    When you say ' sin burden ' do you simply mean like when the OT saints would only have remission but not yet redemption?
     
    #66 Barry Johnson, Nov 3, 2020
  7. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    So just to clarify ,you say //Yes all our sins were taken out of the way, Colossians 2:13-14, but only when we were placed into Christ. // This sounds like a contradition. " Yes all our sins were taken away ( Past tense at the cross 2000 years ago ) , BUT only when we were placed in Christ ?
    I see Jesus taking all the sins out of the way at the cross 2000 years ago of course including those past sins of the Old Testament . ( Rom 3.25 )
     
    #67 Barry Johnson, Nov 3, 2020
  8. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    I thought redemption happened at the cross?
     
    #68 Barry Johnson, Nov 3, 2020
  9. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Of course . I believe all our sins were paid for ,past present and future 2000 years ago ,whilst we were yet sinners.
     
    #69 Barry Johnson, Nov 3, 2020
  10. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
    19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
    20¶Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
    21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him

    As I read verse 19 I see ' past tense '
    19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself . Surely this points to the cross ? not imputing their trespasses unto them;
    Rom 5 clarifies.

    10For if,when we were enemies ( past tense ) , we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,( 2000 years ago ) much more, being reconciled,( when we believed) we shall be saved by his life. ( Glorification, because of his resurrection)
     
    #70 Barry Johnson, Nov 3, 2020
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  11. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    ///Colossians 2:11
    and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;/// Yes this is something that happens after we believe.But that's not sin related thas the work of the Holy Spirit.
     
    #71 Barry Johnson, Nov 3, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2020
  12. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    I don't think God is in christ reconciling the world to himself in the sense after we believe one by one ? Surely that is what happened on the cross " it is finished " . By not imputing their trespasses against them Everyone can freely come to Christ to BE reconciled in the sense of receiving him . Sin had to be dealt with first .
     
    #72 Barry Johnson, Nov 3, 2020
  13. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Surely the reason we have the message ! of reconciliation is because its true that God has reconciled their sins by the death on the cross. Thats why its good news . We tell sinners, Jesus has ( past tense ) died for their sins , was buried and rose again on the third day according to the Scriptures. Surely were not telling sinners that Jesus hasn't died for their sins 2000 years ago on the cross ,unless they believe, then he really has died for your sins?
     
    #73 Barry Johnson, Nov 3, 2020
  14. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    I think Paul suffered abuse because he was preaching ' liberty ' and was accused of preaching Antinominism. Its just the same today.
     
    #74 Barry Johnson, Nov 3, 2020
  15. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    That's niave in light of Galations. No sense in Paul warning Believer's if its not possible to be brought into bondage .
     
    #75 Barry Johnson, Nov 3, 2020
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The verse says together with Him, thus when we are placed in Christ, our sin burden is removed. But how could the sin burden be taken away? By the sacrifice which paid the ransom, or redemption price, or all humankind.

    I cannot explain "sin burden" any more clearly than to say "what God held against us" in the decrees.

    I think you seem to want to deny redemption is in Christ, and put it on the cross. The ransom was paid 2000 years ago, providing the means of redemption, but individuals receive that redemption in Christ, and not outside of Christ.
     
    #76 Van, Nov 3, 2020
  17. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    I believe if you hold to Lordship salvation its sometimes hard to see what's wrong with it whilst your under it . Its sounds righteous and good . But its way off from understanding grace . It turns preaching biblical Grace into licence, liberty into antinominsim . Gal 3.3
     
    #77 Barry Johnson, Nov 3, 2020
  18. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure the term 'sin burden 'is helping ( could be my fault here not understanding)
     
    #78 Barry Johnson, Nov 3, 2020
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Here is the verse: (NASB)
    namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has ]committed to us the word of reconciliation.

    So why do you think the whole world has been, past tense, reconciled. Why is God still reconciling, if the whole world has been reconciled. Why do we have the message of reconciliation, why do we beg the lost to be reconciled to God. Your view cannot be reconciled with scripture.
     
    #79 Van, Nov 3, 2020
  20. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    The verse literally says what God held against us" WAS dealt with at the cross . ' while we ( everyone without exception) were yet sinners christ died for us .
    Eph 2 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

    Col 2
    14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
     
    #80 Barry Johnson, Nov 3, 2020
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