When were we Chosen?

[Silverhair]

What is the sequence of events? Was her heart opened because she paid attention to what was said by Paul? Or was her heart opened so that she was able to pay attention to what was said by Paul?

Acts 16:14 (ESV)
One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

Nobody is saying God is believing for anybody. The only way a person can be saved is by faith in Christ. There are no "various means" that God uses to entice a lost person to believe. It's always been the Gospel.

What was the sequence Tea, was see a worshipper of God before or after He opened her heart to respond to what Paul was saying regarding Jesus

She was already saved Tea.

God doesn't force a person to have faith, but He does give them the ability to have faith, and then they will believe all on their own.

Well since He desires all too come to repentance then we have to conclude that He has given that ability to all people or we have to conclude that He was being less than honest.

John 8:34 (ESV)
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin.

As a Christian we are slaves to God but does that mean we cannot sin or make choices that do not align withthe will of God?

The natural man only wants to follow their own desires, and yes, God will judge them for their actions. He is perfectly just to leave some the way they are and save some out of mercy.

Under your calvinist system man can only do as God has determined for him to do so even his desires have been determined.

Odd how the calvinist has a different set of rules for each situation that points out the errors of their system.

God could have comdemned all of mankind but He has chosen to show mercy to those that freely trust in Him

If the Father's intention is to universally draw all men to the Son, but the Son will fail to raise up some at the last day, then you've created a contradiction within the triune Godhead. If you take a closer look, you'll see that Jews and Greeks are in view of "all men."

His desire to save all does not conflict with not all being saved. You seem to forget that man has to respond to the various drawings of God. The only way a conflict would arise is if the calvinist divine determination we true.

Yes both Jews and Greek are in view in "ALL MEN" and that would include all of humanity when understood from a biblicl perspective.

God doesn't hold a gun up to a person and tell them to sin or else, but He did create a world where sin was possible, and man will always choose to sin by their own choice.

That is the biblical understanding Tea, when man chooses to sin it is his choice, so of course I would agree with it but what you wrote is not the calvinist divine determinism view.

As do I.

That is not actually true Tea, what you do is point out what does not agree with the calvinist view of scripture. It seems that for the calvinist the bible has to agree with their view or the bible is wrong.

That may sound harsh but that is what I have seem over numerous posts on this and other boards.

I think we should be careful about dismissing others' beliefs as an entirely separate religion. I have no problem saying that some Catholics are saved, but if they are, it is in spite of the RCC, not because of it.

I agree and I think the same when it comes to many calvinists as I am sure many on here think of those of us who do not hold to the DoG/TULIP.

So sometimes Jesus fails to save?

That is what we see in scripture. God will only save those that have freely trusted in Him. Did all those that heard Jesus and knew the OT prophicies trust in Him? No they did not. Did He fail to save them yes but only because they rejected Him as the means of their salvation.

Now if you are asking if He fails to save those that have trusted in Him then the answer is no He does not fail. But He does not save those that do not trust in Him does He.

What I see in Scripture is that the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. For everyone else, it results in their salvation perfectly.

Why are some perishing Tea?
1] because they think the gospel is foolish
or
2] because they have not trusted in God.

Answer
It is because they have not trusted in God because they think the gospel is foolishness.
And of course those that do not think the message is foolishness and trust in God will be saved.

But even so we still see that many who hear the gospel message are not save.

Could she have been saved just by being a worshipper of God? What if Paul had not come along with the Gospel message?

That is pure speculation. Many in the OT were saved never hearing the gospel message and we know that many are now coming to faith in the true God through dreams.

We are not in the position to tell God whom or how He can save.

Was Lydia not saved when she was a worshipper of God as we are told in scripture?

That seems to be the dispensational understanding, and I'm not a dispensationalist. Regardless, God always initiates a change in a person's heart without their cooperation needed.

Acts 15:9 (ESV)
And he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.

Does the word of God change depending on how you want to view it?

God has provided many ways for man to know Him but from what you have just said it would seem that you think God forces men to believe in Him.
That is not a biblical view but as we know it is the calvinist view.

So Paul and David didn't have free will, but everyone else does. How does that work, exactly?

Not what I said Tea. God has chosen a number of men for various tasks as we can see in the biblical text.

How does being chosen for a task negate a persons free will Tea? Judas was chosen to be one of the disciples and yet he betrayed Jesus. Was that because God forced him to do it or was it by his free will. Was God surprised at what Judas did?

Tea if man does not have a free will then all things are determined and you have just made God the ultimate sinner.

I agree. The elect will do exactly that.

So again you fal back to your false calvinism. None are elect until they are in the elect one through faith.

Your theoty has peole saved prior to thme even trusting in God. Not a biblical view but it is calvinism 101.

You may or may not be aware of it, but by definition, synergism requires man to cooperate with God. That's exactly how all of the pagan religions in history operated.

Good thing that trusting in God is not cooperating with Him then isn't it.

We are saved by grace through faith as the bible says. We hear the gospel and believe the gospel and God saves us.

That is not synergism Tea. Well you may call it that but the bible shows that is the means of salvation so you would be at odds with the word of God.

BTW The pagans did works so as to earn good favor with their god. But as you know faith is not a work so again not synergistic.

 

[Van]

Romans 5:1-2 is speaking of enabling grace, not saving grace.

We are justified by faith and have peace with God. Then, after we are justified and have peace with God, We have access to “the grace in which we stand”. This is called enabling grace. It is the same grace God told Paul was sufficient when he trembled at Corinth.

It does not say we have access to saving grace by faith, as you have stated (changing the very words of scripture to fit your theology btw)

Paul often speaks of “enabling grace” given to believers after salvation that allows them to endure persecution for the cause of Christ.

I don’t expect you to agree, as that would cause you to actually admit you misinterpreted scripture (intentionally or because of ignorance of how biblical words are used.. or some combination thereof)

Nevertheless, I have explained the truth of Romans 5:1-2. If you don’t agree, then simply explain why you needed to change the words of scripture from “access to the grace in which we stand” to your words “access to saving grace”?

Peace to you

LOL, faith that enables faith. Right, got it.

Ever wonder which verses actually speak of the grace that enables us to come to faith? Answer, NONE. It is a totally made up fiction pushed by the unstudied dupes of Calvinism.

You are the one who make false charges, as Calvinism requires rewriting verse after verse as I have posted. But folks, rather than claim I did something in the unreferenced past, I post them over and over again.

No one seeks after God becomes the Calvinist rewrite no one ever seeks after God.

Natural people cannot understand the things of the Spirit becomes the Calvinist rewrite, natural people cannot understand any of the things of the Spirit.

God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth becomes the Calvinist rewrite, God does not choose individuals for salvation through faith in the truth.

I could go on and on, but it is pointless because this poster will continue to make the same baseless and false claims to hide the fiction that is Calvinism.

 

[Van]

There are at least two views as to when God chooses individuals for salvation. The first view is that God choose everyone to be saved before creation based on an interpretation of Ephesians 1:4, which says God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. The second view, is that God is choosing individuals for salvation in the here and now and will continue to do so until the end of the age of grace.

As many of you know, I have provided two lines of evidence in support of the second view. Yet not one poster has ever replied, Yes, I agree the election of Ephesians 1:4 must be corporate, and our individual elections for salvation must still be occurring.

So, trying to be diligent in rightly dividing the word of truth, I thought I would add more lines of evidence, hoping there are some who browse this forum with open minds.

1) As many of you know, 2 Corinthians 5:19 says God "was" reconciling the world to Himself. This verb, translated "was" is in the Greek an imperfect active indicative, which describes continuous, ongoing, or repeated past actions. Thus God has been and is continuing to be reconciling is the truth carefully hidden by poor translations which present the action as past, and omitting the continuing nature of the indicated action. Some might say, yes but God could have chosen them in the past, before creation, but only reconciled them in the present. This is consistent with receiving the reconciliation during our physical lifetime, and with our mission as Ambassadors of Christ to beg the lost to be reconciled to God. Unfortunately not one poster has posted, "Yes, I agree God is reconciling those chosen in the here and now rather than when Christ sacrificed His life."

2) James 2:5 indicates God choose individuals who were poor "of the world...." Here the word translated "of the world" is in the Greek a dative noun, indicating the location where they were poor. Thus we were chosen while viewed as poor by humanity, which requires they were part of human culture, again requiring that they were chosen while existing as humans. So we were both chosen and reconciled while physically alive.

3) The last line of evidence uses both Romans 4:24 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we were chosen through faith in the truth, thus we had faith at the time of being chosen for salvation. Not one Calvinist has ever agreed with this truth. However, there is more, Romans 4:24 says "faith" (the antecedent of the pronoun translated as "it) will be (present tense, in the here and now) to those who believe God raised Jesus from the dead. Thus the faith used in our individual election for salvation was credited in the here and now, making our election in the here and now, during our physical lifetime.

4) Just as a reminder, 1 Peter 2:9-10 says were once existed as "not a people" chosen for God's own possession, and once had not received mercy. Therefore we could not have been individually chosen before we existed.

All should agree, individuals are individually chosen during their physical lifetime, and were NOT chosen individually before they existed, because they existed as a people NOT chosen for God's possession.

 

[Van]

Not what they do.

Repentance and belief is not something people do, for example. But it certainly affects what people do.

If you believe an airplane will arrive at its destination safely that is not doing anything. But that belief may result in you getting on the plane.


In Scripture "works" refer to the works of the Law as opposed to "faith".

Those that make this false claim that faith is according to works do so based on simply copy and pasting Calvinist screed, as anyone who reads Romans Chapter 4 knows that faith is according to grace. Our faith provides our access to God's grace. Note we do not gain grace, but only the possibility of receiving grace.

And do not forget Romans 9:16 where we can will to be saved, and put our faith in Christ, but salvation is not brought about by that action, as salvation depends on the one who chooses to credit our faith or not as righteousness, an act of gracious mercy.

 

[Silverhair]

We are justified by faith and have peace with God. Then, after we are justified and have peace with God, We have access to “the grace in which we stand”. This is called enabling grace. It is the same grace God told Paul was sufficient when he trembled at Corinth.

@canadyjd you said "This is called enabling grace." Enabling grace {continuing grace} to do what?

Are you referring to His grace that enables us to stand up under the trials we will face as Christians or something different?

 

[Silverhair]

I believe the biblical “version” of election. I have explained why. We don’t have to agree.

Have a nice day

Peace to you

Have to correct you @canadyjd. What you hold to is the calvinist version of "election" which does not agree with the biblical view.

This has been pointed out to you a number of times.

So we will continue to agree to disagree.

 

[JesusFan]

I am going to agree with your overall point and offer some reasoning of my own. The Reformed cannot accept your view (IMO) because they have divided the "calling" into two distinct callings according to their established system of theology. They are distinguished in their names, the general call and the effectual call.

General call

In Calvinism, the general call refers to the gospel invitation that is extended to all people, inviting them to accept salvation through Jesus Christ. This call is made through preaching and can be resisted, unlike the special or effectual call, which is only for the elect and cannot be resisted.

Effectual Calling
In Calvinism, "the call" refers to the effectual calling, which is the belief that God, through His grace, calls the elect to salvation in a way that is irresistible and transformative. This means that those who are chosen by God will inevitably respond to this call and come to faith in Jesus Christ.

A major conflict in sanity and reasoning (IMO)

Total depravity
In Calvinism, the doctrine that, as a result of original sin, every aspect of human nature is corrupted, making individuals unable to choose God or do good without divine grace. This concept emphasizes that humans are spiritually dead and completely reliant on God's grace for salvation.

Think about God calling someone who is totally dead and him knowing it. What could possibly be the point?

Correct answer to OP would be from eternity past

 

[canadyjd]

All should agree, individuals are individually chosen during their physical lifetime, and were NOT chosen individually before they existed, because they existed as a people NOT chosen for God's possession.

Scripture says we were chosen before the foundation of the world.

THE VANOLOGY REWRITE… we our chosen during our lifetime.

Predestination literally is a construction term meaning to set apart beforehand… that is the land is set apart then prepared for building before it the building begins.

THE VANOLOGY REWRITE…. The building is built and then it’s set apart to be built. The person is saved by faith, then is predestined.

The scriptural truth of salvation… it is a work of GOD from start to finish. People respond to GOD’S work in their life, regeneration by GOD HOLY SPIRIT, drawing, convicting… we respond to GOD with faith in Jesus and are then reconciled with peace with God.

THE VANOLOGY REWRITE… salvation is a work of man to get GOD’S attention by showing faith in Jesus.. GOD then responds to what man has done by granting salvation (even though they already saved themselves with faith apart from any work of God), predestines them (destroying the meaning of the word) and places them “in Christ” according to what they did.

Scripture is clear we are chosen before the foundation of the world, predestined, called, drawn and brought into that right relationship with God.

Some are not able to accept the truth of scripture. Rather, they embrace a man made secular philosophy of what is “fair” and mangle scripture in an attempt yo force God to fit their beliefs.

Follow scripture folks.

Peace to you

 

[Van]

Scripture says we were chosen before the foundation of the world.

THE VANOLOGY REWRITE… we our chosen during our lifetime.

Predestination literally is a construction term meaning to set apart beforehand… that is the land is set apart then prepared for building before it the building begins.

THE VANOLOGY REWRITE…. The building is built and then it’s set apart to be built. The person is saved by faith, then is predestined.

The scriptural truth of salvation… it is a work of GOD from start to finish. People respond to GOD’S work in their life, regeneration by GOD HOLY SPIRIT, drawing, convicting… we respond to GOD with faith in Jesus and are then reconciled with peace with God.

THE VANOLOGY REWRITE… salvation is a work of man to get GOD’S attention by showing faith in Jesus.. GOD then responds to what man has done by granting salvation (even though they already saved themselves with faith apart from any work of God), predestines them (destroying the meaning of the word) and places them “in Christ” according to what they did.

Scripture is clear we are chosen before the foundation of the world, predestined, called, drawn and brought into that right relationship with God.

Some are not able to accept the truth of scripture. Rather, they embrace a man made secular philosophy of what is “fair” and mangle scripture in an attempt yo force God to fit their beliefs.

Follow scripture folks.

Peace to you

What an avalanche of lies!
1) No one claimed God did not choose us in Him before the foundation of the world. Thus a lie by implication
2) Yes 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and James 2:5 both say we were individually chosen during our lifetime. So the claim it is a rewrite is a lie.
3) Calvinism's false claim we were individually predestined to salvation is a lie. Once in Christ, then we have already been saved, and only after that are we predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, to our inheritance in heaven and our bodily redemption.
4) We are not a temple of God before we are saved. That claim is a lie. Once we are saved we are indwelt, making us a temple.
5) Romans 4:16 proves our salvation is by grace through faith, which is according to grace and not works. The claim faith is works is a lie.
6) Van did not say salvation is a work by man - that claim is a lie.l
7) Van did not say our faith gets God's attention - that claim is a lie!
8) For anyone with credited faith, God then planned to redeem. And His redemption plan including predestining anyone that might be bestowed with credited faith to (1) being conformed to the image of Christ, (2) to an inheritance in heaven, and (3) to be bodily redeemed at Christ's second coming. Thus each of us were (1) known beforehand, predestined, called into His Kingdom, justified, and spiritually glorified.
9) Calvinism is a man made secular philosophy, which must mangle scripture in an attempt to fit it into scripture. The implication that Calvinism is not a wholesale rewrite of scripture is a lie.

 

[Tea]

She was already saved Tea.

So Lydia was saved not needing to hear the Gospel?

Well since He desires all too come to repentance then we have to conclude that He has given that ability to all people or we have to conclude that He was being less than honest.

I can understand why that ability might be read into the text when the context of who is in view is missed. Regardless, folks tend to have a difficult time harmonizing that with the fact that Jesus said that nobody has that ability in John 6:44.

As a Christian we are slaves to God but does that mean we cannot sin or make choices that do not align withthe will of God?

Any act of sin has to be aligned with the will of God, otherwise it's meaningless and without a purpose.

Under your calvinist system man can only do as God has determined for him to do so even his desires have been determined.

Man determines for themselves their own desires, God just determines how He wants to make use of it.

Yes both Jews and Greek are in view in "ALL MEN" and that would include all of humanity when understood from a biblicl perspective.

The Chinese were part of humanity during the time of the Han dynasty, yet Jesus did not mention them. In this context, He was referring specifically to different groups of people: Jews and Greeks.

Did He fail to save them yes but only because they rejected Him as the means of their salvation.

In other words, He is powerless to do something unless man enables Him to do it. Is man more powerful than God?

Why are some perishing Tea?

1 Corinthians 2:14 (ESV)
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Many in the OT were saved never hearing the gospel message and we know that many are now coming to faith in the true God through dreams.

Exactly, so worshipping through the law has nothing to do with it. It's all about faith, and Lydia still had to believe in the Gospel message to be saved.

God has provided many ways for man to know Him but from what you have just said it would seem that you think God forces men to believe in Him.

God has provided many ways for man to know Him, but that doesn't mean that man is going to choose to follow God without being born again first.

How does being chosen for a task negate a persons free will Tea? Judas was chosen to be one of the disciples and yet he betrayed Jesus. Was that because God forced him to do it or was it by his free will. Was God surprised at what Judas did?

Judas was a fallen man and sinful man by his own choices. God used that vessel of wrath to ensure that the crucifixion would happen. He could not have done other than what he did.

John 17:12 (ESV)
While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Tea if man does not have a free will then all things are determined and you have just made God the ultimate sinner.

Man did have a free will back in the garden, but because of the fall, man can do nothing other than make free choices that are compatible with their sin nature. God uses the sin of man for the ultimate good. I don't see how that makes God the ultimate sinner.

None are elect until they are in the elect one through faith.

They are elect before creation.

Ephesians 1:4 (ESV)
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

Your theoty has peole saved prior to thme even trusting in God.

No. The elect are guaranteed to be saved, but that process happens in time.

Good thing that trusting in God is not cooperating with Him then isn't it.

It is if it's a condition that we have to meet on our own.

 

[Van]

All should agree, individuals are individually chosen during their physical lifetime, and were NOT chosen individually before they existed, because they existed as a people NOT chosen for God's possession.

And since we were not chosen individually before creation, the Calvinist doctrine of Predestination to Salvation is also false doctrine.

We are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ only when and if we are transferred spiritually into Christ.

We are predestined to our bodily redemption when Christ returns, only when and if we are transferred spiritually into Christ.

We are predestined to inherit our blessings received in heaven, only when and if we are transferred spiritually into Christ.

 

[Silverhair]

So Lydia was saved not needing to hear the Gospel?

This may surprise you but it is not hearing the gospel that saves you but rather trusting in God.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Was Enoch Gen 5:24 saved prior to being taken to heaven and what about Elijah 2Ki_2:11?
And do you say about the rest of the OT saints?

I can understand why that ability might be read into the text when the context of who is in view is missed. Regardless, folks tend to have a difficult time harmonizing that with the fact that Jesus said that nobody has that ability in John 6:44.

Read John 6:44 again Tea and look at what God has done to draw people to Himself. Be it creation, conviction of sin or even the gospel.

I do not have a problem harmonizing God's desire for all to be saved and man having the ability to respond to His drawing them.

Do you think God is judging man for something that he cannot do? Even responding to Jesus is within the ability of man.

Any act of sin has to be aligned with the will of God, otherwise it's meaningless and without a purpose.

Really, where do you see that in scripture? God can use the sins of man too bring about His purpose but that is not what you are saying is it.

Man determines for themselves their own desires, God just determines how He wants to make use of it.

Tea now you are denying a main point of your calvinism, divine determinism. What does your LBCF say Tea?

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;

If God determines all things does that leave anything out? If so then it would seem your version of God really is not sovereign after all.

It seems the calvinists like to change horses mid stream so they can fit their philosophy into any verse that actually dopes not work for them.

The Chinese were part of humanity during the time of the Han dynasty, yet Jesus did not mention them. In this context, He was referring specifically to different groups of people: Jews and Greeks.

Tea you are just trying to avoid that biblical truth.

Referring to the Greeks is just referring to all those that were not Jews. If you do not know that then you do not understand your bible.

In other words, He is powerless to do something unless man enables Him to do it. Is man more powerful than God?

God is not powerless to save but He will not force men to come to Him as your theory says. God desires to save all but most will reject Him. Is that failure on His part NO. Does that make Him powerless NO.

I can see why you would see it that way as your false theory of salvation has God force people to come to Him. So it is your theory that actually makes God a failure.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (ESV)
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Tea you have pulled 1Co 2:14 out of context and thus have missed what is being said. 1Co 2:12-15 shows that saved men can know the things of the Spirit.

1Co 2:14 is not about salvation Tea.

Exactly, so worshipping through the law has nothing to do with it. It's all about faith, and Lydia still had to believe in the Gospel message to be saved.

So your saying that faith in God is not real faith unless you have heard the gospel? That will be a real surprise to the OT saints on judgement day.

God has provided many ways for man to know Him, but that doesn't mean that man is going to choose to follow God without being born again first

Of course it does not means that all will choose to follow Him. Are all people saved Tea? What God has said is the man has no excuse for not knowing HIm and that is why all men can be judged.

If man is born again/saved then it is because they have trusted in God.

Calvinists have salvation backwards. You have people saved before they even know to trust in God for their salvation. Not biblical Tea but it is calvinism.

Judas was a fallen man and sinful man by his own choices. God used that vessel of wrath to ensure that the crucifixion would happen. He could not have done other than what he did.

John 17:12 (ESV)
While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

As I said Judas was chosen for a task and you just agreed. God foreknew what Judas would do, not because He forced him to do so but because Judas freely chose to do so, Mat 26:14-16

Your argument does not negate man's free will to make real choices.

Man did have a free will back in the garden, but because of the fall, man can do nothing other than make free choices that are compatible with their sin nature. God uses the sin of man for the ultimate good. I don't see how that makes God the ultimate sinner.

You have read the calvinst theory into the bible Tea whch has caused you to make many logical errors.

But since calvinists think God has divinely detremined every thought and move they make it is actually that version of God that has made you think that way.

If the calvinist God has determined all things that come to pass then tell me how anything happens that He did not determine Tea? You are hung on your own theoory Tea.

They are elect before creation.

Ephesians 1:4 (ESV)
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

We are only elect when we are in the "Elect One" and that only happens when by grace we have been saved through faith. Were you saved prior to creation Tea?

You are trusting in a man-made theory Tea rather than the word of God.

No. The elect are guaranteed to be saved, but that process happens in time.

Sorry Tea but you are just repeating a false nerrative.

It is if it's a condition that we have to meet on our own.

The condition is set by God so it means you are in disagreement with Him and His word.

 

[Tea]

This may surprise you but it is not hearing the gospel that saves you but rather trusting in God.

Okay, I don't know how you can say that. There are plenty of Orthodox Jews today who still trust in the God of the Old Testament, but without also trusting in Him as their Messiah, that isn't going to save them. Salvation has ALWAYS been through the Gospel. Just like us, Abraham was saved by believing in the certainty of the finished work of Christ.

Genesis 22:8 (ESV)
Abraham said, “God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.”

Was Enoch Gen 5:24 saved prior to being taken to heaven and what about Elijah 2Ki_2:11?
And do you say about the rest of the OT saints?

Yes, they were saved exactly the same way as Abraham.

Read John 6:44 again Tea and look at what God has done to draw people to Himself. Be it creation, conviction of sin or even the gospel.

I read it again, and surprisingly, nothing in the text has changed. I can confidently confirm that the drawing is the result of God giving a people to the Son. Nothing more, nothing less.

Really, where do you see that in scripture? God can use the sins of man too bring about His purpose but that is not what you are saying is it.

Genesis 50:19-20 (ESV)
But Joseph said to them, “Do not fear, for am I in the place of God? 20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

If God determines all things does that leave anything out? If so then it would seem your version of God really is not sovereign after all.

It doesn't leave anything out. It's true that He had to have determined all things, including acts of evil, but it was done in such a way that doesn't make Him the author of evil. Because the Bible doesn't reveal exactly how all of that works, all we can do is speculate.

Referring to the Greeks is just referring to all those that were not Jews. If you do not know that then you do not understand your bible.

If I called a Chinese person a Greek, I would imagine that would not go over well. They are very proud of their heritage.

God desires to save all but most will reject Him. Is that failure on His part NO. Does that make Him powerless NO.

Actually, I would say it does because if He desires to get something but doesn't get what He wants, He lacks the power to do so.

1Co 2:14 is not about salvation Tea.

Salvation isn't included in the things of the Spirit? Now you're just splitting hairs.

So your saying that faith in God is not real faith unless you have heard the gospel? That will be a real surprise to the OT saints on judgement day.

You can't know God without having faith in the finished work of Christ. That includes the OT saints.

John 14:6 (ESV)
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

What God has said is the man has no excuse for not knowing HIm and that is why all men can be judged.

By nature, they suppress that truth either ignorantly or willfully. Many atheists are utterly convinced that the Bible is nothing more than fictional literature from the Bronze Age, and science reveals that the creation is really just a cosmic accident. Ultimately, God is the one who must remove the scales from their eyes.

If man is born again/saved then it is because they have trusted in God.

Trusting in God is what reveals that they have been born again.

1 John 5:1 (ESV)
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

God foreknew what Judas would do, not because He forced him to do so but because Judas freely chose to do so, Mat 26:14-16

It had to be forced; otherwise, the Scripture could have been nullified. Just like Pharaoh, Judas was a vessel of wrath prepared for destruction, and God used him as the instrument to accomplish His purposes.

Were you saved prior to creation Tea?

No. I was elected to salvation in eternity past but was not actually saved until June 11, 2022.

You are trusting in a man-made theory Tea rather than the word of God.

I'm trusting in the Bible, which happens to agree with what you call a man-made theory.

The condition is set by God so it means you are in disagreement with Him and His word.

You might see conditions. What I see are statements of facts that don't get me stuck in a contradictory mess.

 

[canadyjd]

All should agree, individuals are individually chosen during their physical lifetime, and were NOT chosen individually before they existed, because they existed as a people NOT chosen for God's possession.

And since we were not chosen individually before creation, the Calvinist doctrine of Predestination to Salvation is also false doctrine.

We are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ only when and if we are transferred spiritually into Christ.

We are predestined to our bodily redemption when Christ returns, only when and if we are transferred spiritually into Christ.

We are predestined to inherit our blessings received in heaven, only when and if we are transferred spiritually into Christ.

Your theology relies on changing the definition of “predestined”. Not good, but par for the course. Have you ever wondered why your theology is so contrary to the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ and His Apostles? Of course you haven’t. It’s your goal to put Jules’s and His Apostles in their place and conform to your secular philosophy of what is fair.

Scripture is clear we are chosen, as individuals, before the foundation of the world, predestined (marked beforehand and prepared), called, regenerated and brought into a right relationship with God.

I’ve never seen anyone try so hard to rob God of His glory in being the author and finisher of our faith.

You take the glory from God and give it to the man, so he can boost that at least he was smart enough to believe when so many others rejected

Very sad indeed

Peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Okay, I don't know how you can say that. There are plenty of Orthodox Jews today who still trust in the God of the Old Testament, but without also trusting in Him as their Messiah, that isn't going to save them. Salvation has ALWAYS been through the Gospel. Just like us, Abraham was saved by believing in the certainty of the finished work of Christ.

Genesis 22:8 (ESV)
Abraham said, “God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.”

Yes, they were saved exactly the same way as Abraham.

I read it again, and surprisingly, nothing in the text has changed. I can confidently confirm that the drawing is the result of God giving a people to the Son. Nothing more, nothing less.

Genesis 50:19-20 (ESV)
But Joseph said to them, “Do not fear, for am I in the place of God? 20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

It doesn't leave anything out. It's true that He had to have determined all things, including acts of evil, but it was done in such a way that doesn't make Him the author of evil. Because the Bible doesn't reveal exactly how all of that works, all we can do is speculate.

If I called a Chinese person a Greek, I would imagine that would not go over well. They are very proud of their heritage.

Actually, I would say it does because if He desires to get something but doesn't get what He wants, He lacks the power to do so.

Salvation isn't included in the things of the Spirit? Now you're just splitting hairs.

You can't know God without having faith in the finished work of Christ. That includes the OT saints.

John 14:6 (ESV)
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

By nature, they suppress that truth either ignorantly or willfully. Many atheists are utterly convinced that the Bible is nothing more than fictional literature from the Bronze Age, and science reveals that the creation is really just a cosmic accident. Ultimately, God is the one who must remove the scales from their eyes.

Trusting in God is what reveals that they have been born again.

1 John 5:1 (ESV)
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

It had to be forced; otherwise, the Scripture could have been nullified. Just like Pharaoh, Judas was a vessel of wrath prepared for destruction, and God used him as the instrument to accomplish His purposes.

No. I was elected to salvation in eternity past but was not actually saved until June 11, 2022.

I'm trusting in the Bible, which happens to agree with what you call a man-made theory.

You might see conditions. What I see are statements of facts that don't get me stuck in a contradictory mess.

Tea I read through your post and what I see is the standard calvinist denial of the word of God. But that is what it has been determined that you will believe. Why God would want you to believe a theory based on pagan philosophy I do not know but that is the way it is.

You posted some video from J. White and I must say you have chosen someone that I would say has a questionable moral compass and theology.

"God is incapable of knowing an undetermined future, and therefore, for God to be omniscient and all-knowing, no future could be left undetermined, or better yet, unscripted." (James White, Debating Calvinism, p.163)

Calvinist theologian James White, in a debate with Hank Hannegraaf and George Bryson, was asked, “When a child is raped, is God responsible and did He decree that rape?” To which Mr. White replied… “Yes, because if not then it’s meaningless and purposeless and though God knew it was going to happen he created it without a purpose… and God is responsible for the creation of despair… If He didn‟t [decree child rape] then that rape is an element of meaningless evil that has no purpose.” James White, Why it is Important to Go Back to the Sources, Illustrated.

So we will continue to disagree.

It has been determined that you will follow the path you are on and I have freely chosen to trust the word of God.