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When were we Chosen?

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Those seem to be your favorite two words that you like to use against the doctrines of grace. God has determined that we grow in knowledge, but that doesn’t happen overnight. I’ve found the many flaws present in synergism and have moved on, yet my journey to fully understanding the Scriptures is far from finished and probably won’t be completed in this life.



I will confess that he does come across as arrogant sometimes, but that doesn’t mean I can’t learn from the man. There are many things that I disagree with him on, such as ecclesiastical issues.



I believe that absolutely has to be true. You want to try to say that God knows what we will freely do, yet that knowledge is only hypothetical. Man still has to make their choice to confirm or deny what God apparently has perfect knowledge of.



If you want to say that God permitted evil acts to happen—He could have stopped them if He wanted to but didn’t—then that doesn’t really solve the problem of evil, does it? I am more at peace knowing that evil exists as part of creation, whether we like it or not, but God is in control of it.



It looks like that will be the case, since I’m not backing off from my position, and I know you’re not backing off from yours.


Tea you have gone to far when you attribute to me what you know is a quote from James White. That is highly insulting.

Here is the quote again so you cannot say you did not know it was from White.

Calvinist theologian James White, in a debate with Hank Hannegraaf and George Bryson, was asked, “When a child is raped, is God responsible and did He decree that rape?” To which Mr. White replied… “Yes, because if not then it’s meaningless and purposeless and though God knew it was going to happen he created it without a purpose… and God is responsible for the creation of despair… If He didn‟t [decree child rape] then that rape is an element of meaningless evil that has no purpose.” James White, Why it is Important to Go Back to the Sources, Illustrated.

You said "pagan philosophy" is my favorite way to refer to the DoG/TULIP. That is true as when to look to the foundations of calvinism it is found in pagan philosophy that augustine brought into the church in the 4th century.

If you want to ignore historical facts that is your choice but you cannot deny them.
 

Marooncat79

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Egg
All should agree, individuals are individually chosen during their physical lifetime, and were NOT chosen individually before they existed, because they existed as a people NOT chosen for God's possession.

Ephesians 1:4

t. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Egg


Ephesians 1:4

t. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

Did He choose us in Him (Christ) before the creation for salvation or did He choose us in Christ as the means for salvation to be blameless in His sight, in love?
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Scripture precludes being chosen as individuals before the foundation of the world as we existed as "not a people" chosen for His possession.

The rest of the post is that of a sand box bully, shouting and throwing sand, all sound and fury signifying nothing.
Your ignorance of scripture is exposed every time you post.

Still, you refuse to answer the question.. why is your theology so contrary to the teachings of our Lord Jesus and His Apostles? Why are you basing your theology on changing the very definitions of the Words we find in scripture? Why do you constantly attempt to rob God of His glory in bringing many souls to salvation by claiming the man does it all on his own?

Very sad indeed

Peace to you
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Did He choose us in Him (Christ) before the creation for salvation or did He choose us in Christ as the means for salvation to be blameless in His sight, in love?

If God chose us in Christ as the means of salvation, Eph. 1:4 is not referring to who will be saved, but the manner in which we will be saved.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Egg


Ephesians 1:4

t. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
Calvinism makes a scrambled egg out of God's pristine word. No one claims God did not choose us in Him before the foundation of the world, your fiction is God choose us as individuals before the foundation of the world, when 1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes that bogus interpretation.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Did He choose us in Him (Christ) before the creation for salvation or did He choose us in Christ as the means for salvation to be blameless in His sight, in love?
The context demands we are chosen as individuals, not that God chose the “plan” to bring people to salvation in a general sense.

Such thinking is contrary to the meaning of the words predestined and elect, both demand a focus on the specific person, not in the “plan”.

Peace to you
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
The context demands we are chosen as individuals, not that God chose the “plan” to bring people to salvation in a general sense.

Such thinking is contrary to the meaning of the words predestined and elect, both demand a focus on the specific person, not in the “plan”.

Peace to you

"We were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world" sounds exactly like the plan I was chosen for to be conformed in the image of Christ.

God made a decision before He created man, it was His plan of redemption all men would follow to be born-again.

It was specifically designed for, "whosoever will..."
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Your ignorance of scripture is exposed every time you post.

Still, you refuse to answer the question.. why is your theology so contrary to the teachings of our Lord Jesus and His Apostles? Why are you basing your theology on changing the very definitions of the Words we find in scripture? Why do you constantly attempt to rob God of His glory in bringing many souls to salvation by claiming the man does it all on his own?

Very sad indeed

Peace to you
Against the Person argumentation is the trademark of false teachers.

Next, you try, like a child, to change the subject to me.

These Calvinists have not shown any ability to discuss scripture, or defend their false doctrines, but only to offer lame diversions.

We were chosen through faith in the truth. Therefore we must have heard the gospel and affirmatively responded. Thus Calvinism denies 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5, and many more passages.

The doctrines of disgrace rob God of His glory, claiming Jesus was wrong when He said many will search for the narrow door. They rob God of His glory by denying God must credit our faith as righteousness to gain access to His grace. They rob God of His glory by mangling verse after verse to claim it means the opposite of what it says. Christ did not die as a ransom for all, including those heading for swift destruction. No, they rob Him of glory and rewriting His very words.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
There must a misunderstanding. Where did I do that? That wasn’t my intention at all.

Then why would you attribute what White said to me as I have pointed out to you.

I requoted his text and you still do not see the problem of your cherry picking text.

Note these are Whites words in red:
Calvinist theologian James White, in a debate with Hank Hannegraaf and George Bryson, was asked, “When a child is raped, is God responsible and did He decree that rape?” To which Mr. White replied “Yes, because if not then it’s meaningless and purposeless and though God knew it was going to happen he created it without a purpose… and God is responsible for the creation of despair… If He didn‟t [decree child rape] then that rape is an element of meaningless evil that has no purpose.” James White, Why it is Important to Go Back to the Sources, Illustrated.


You then cherry pick the text in red and put it under my name as if I had written it. That is insulting. The fact you do not see what my concern is is problematic.

Yes, because if not then it’s meaningless and purposeless and though God knew it was going to happen he created it without a purpose… and God is responsible for the creation of despair… If He didn‟t [decree child rape] then that rape is an element of meaningless evil that has no purpose..

Your comment Tea

"If you want to say that God permitted evil acts to happen—He could have stopped them if He wanted to but didn’t—then that doesn’t really solve the problem of evil, does it? I am more at peace knowing that evil exists as part of creation, whether we like it or not, but God is in control of it."
 
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Tea

Active Member
You then cherry pick the text in red and put it under my name as if I had written it. That is insulting. The fact you do not see what my concern is is problematic.

I see what the problem is.

When responding to posters here, I always try to only quote the main point of their argument so as not to create clutter on my posts. By removing the quotation marks and the name of who quoted it, it does make it appear as if it was said by you. I assure you, that was not done intentionally on my part.

I apologize, and I’ll try not to make that mistake again.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Against the Person argumentation is the trademark of false teachers.

Next, you try, like a child, to change the subject to me.
Not surprising you accuse me of “against the person” argument and then call me a child. You are as blind to your own arguments as you are to scripture.

I’m against your wrong headed theology @Van, though I understand you take every disagreement as a personal attack.
These Calvinists have not shown any ability to discuss scripture, or defend their false doctrines, but only to offer lame diversions.
Laughable. You have been presented volumes of scripture, in context, to support the doctrines of grace and clearly disprove your secular philosophy.

You ignore all that scripture, refuse to address it, dismiss it out of hand and then launch into personal attacks of “false teachers”.
We were chosen through faith in the truth. Therefore we must have heard the gospel and affirmatively responded. Thus Calvinism denies 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5, and many more passages.
That is simply untrue as has been pointed out to you many times. Once again, Vanology changes the very words of scripture to support the secular philosophy.

Very very sad
The doctrines of disgrace rob God of His glory, claiming Jesus was wrong when He said many will search for the narrow door. They rob God of His glory by denying God must credit our faith as righteousness to gain access to His grace. They rob God of His glory by mangling verse after verse to claim it means the opposite of what it says. Christ did not die as a ransom for all, including those heading for swift destruction. No, they rob Him of glory and rewriting His very words.
Wow, everything you are claiming here is EXACTLY what you are doing. You must be projecting your false way of thinking upon your opponents.

Very very sad

Peace to you
 

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
There are at least two views as to when God chooses individuals for salvation. The first view is that God choose everyone to be saved before creation based on an interpretation of Ephesians 1:4, which says God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. The second view, is that God is choosing individuals for salvation in the here and now and will continue to do so until the end of the age of grace.

As many of you know, I have provided two lines of evidence in support of the second view. Yet not one poster has ever replied, Yes, I agree the election of Ephesians 1:4 must be corporate, and our individual elections for salvation must still be occurring.

So, trying to be diligent in rightly dividing the word of truth, I thought I would add more lines of evidence, hoping there are some who browse this forum with open minds.

1) As many of you know, 2 Corinthians 5:19 says God "was" reconciling the world to Himself. This verb, translated "was" is in the Greek an imperfect active indicative, which describes continuous, ongoing, or repeated past actions. Thus God has been and is continuing to be reconciling is the truth carefully hidden by poor translations which present the action as past, and omitting the continuing nature of the indicated action. Some might say, yes but God could have chosen them in the past, before creation, but only reconciled them in the present. This is consistent with receiving the reconciliation during our physical lifetime, and with our mission as Ambassadors of Christ to beg the lost to be reconciled to God. Unfortunately not one poster has posted, "Yes, I agree God is reconciling those chosen in the here and now rather than when Christ sacrificed His life."

2) James 2:5 indicates God choose individuals who were poor "of the world...." Here the word translated "of the world" is in the Greek a dative noun, indicating the location where they were poor. Thus we were chosen while viewed as poor by humanity, which requires they were part of human culture, again requiring that they were chosen while existing as humans. So we were both chosen and reconciled while physically alive.

3) The last line of evidence uses both Romans 4:24 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we were chosen through faith in the truth, thus we had faith at the time of being chosen for salvation. Not one Calvinist has ever agreed with this truth. However, there is more, Romans 4:24 says "faith" (the antecedent of the pronoun translated as "it) will be (present tense, in the here and now) to those who believe God raised Jesus from the dead. Thus the faith used in our individual election for salvation was credited in the here and now, making our election in the here and now, during our physical lifetime.

4) Just as a reminder, 1 Peter 2:9-10 says were once existed as "not a people" chosen for God's own possession, and once had not received mercy. Therefore we could not have been individually chosen before we existed.
I think your title answers your question. Did God choose or did we choose? If God chose, which He did, then His choice was in eternity past.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I think your title answers your question. Did God choose or did we choose? If God chose, which He did, then His choice was in eternity past.
You can certainly think as you please. Since scripture teaches we were INDIVIDUALLY chosen during our physical lifetime, after we existed as "NOT A PEOPLE" chosen for God's own possession, your view is unbiblical.

Folks, note how they do not distinguish between corporate or individual election, and thus present half truth as the whole truth.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Not surprising you accuse me of “against the person” argument and then call me a child. You are as blind to your own arguments as you are to scripture.

I’m against your wrong headed theology @Van, though I understand you take every disagreement as a personal attack.

Laughable. You have been presented volumes of scripture, in context, to support the doctrines of grace and clearly disprove your secular philosophy.

You ignore all that scripture, refuse to address it, dismiss it out of hand and then launch into personal attacks of “false teachers”.

That is simply untrue as has been pointed out to you many times. Once again, Vanology changes the very words of scripture to support the secular philosophy.

Very very sad

Wow, everything you are claiming here is EXACTLY what you are doing. You must be projecting your false way of thinking upon your opponents.

Very very sad

Peace to you
An entire post of "against the person" drivel, rather than any effort to discuss the topic.

We are chosen INDIVIDUALLY when God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness.

Calvinism denies 2 Thessalonians 2:13 claiming it actually means God did NOT chose us through faith in the truth.

All they have is diversion and insult...
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
An entire post of "against the person" drivel, rather than any effort to discuss the topic.

We are chosen INDIVIDUALLY when God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness.

Calvinism denies 2 Thessalonians 2:13 claiming it actually means God did NOT chose us through faith in the truth.

All they have is diversion and insult...
Changing, literally changing, the words and the meaning of the words of scripture will never make your secular philosophy true.

Keep studying @Van, there is hope you will finally understand one day as long as you come to scripture with an open mind, believe what it clearly says, don’t change the words and just realize you are projecting a secular philosophy upon the Word of God.

Embrace the Truth! Reject false secular philosophy!!

BTW, you stated against the person arguments are a sign of a false teacher. You then called me a child. By your own definition, that makes you a false teacher. Not surprised you can’t see that.

Peace to you
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Changing, literally changing, the words and the meaning of the words of scripture will never make your secular philosophy true.

Keep studying @Van, there is hope you will finally understand one day as long as you come to scripture with an open mind, believe what it clearly says, don’t change the words and just realize you are projecting a secular philosophy upon the Word of God.

Embrace the Truth! Reject false secular philosophy!!

BTW, you stated against the person arguments are a sign of a false teacher. You then called me a child. By your own definition, that makes you a false teacher. Not surprised you can’t see that.

Peace to you
More against the person drivel. One false charge after another. Folks pay no attention to those who do not discuss thread topics, but only change the subject to how awful those who hold differing views are.

We are chosen INDIVIDUALLY when God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness.
Calvinism denies 2 Thessalonians 2:13 claiming it actually means God did NOT chose us through faith in the truth.
All they have is diversion and insult...
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Did God choose individuals through faith in the truth? 2 Thessalonians 2:13 Every poster should answer that question with a yes, but instead we will have silence from those who do not believe God's word.

Did God choose individuals who were poor according to the world's value system but rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God? James 2:5 Every poster should answer that question with a yes, but instead we will have silence from those who do not believe God's word.

Crystal Ball theology and Time Travel Theology are fictions, relics of the dark ages. Do not place your faith in what people have added to scripture to make it fit with their unstudied views. But seek understanding, that God did not choose individuals before they existed as "not a people" chosen for His own possession. 1 Peter 2:9-10
 

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You can certainly think as you please. Since scripture teaches we were INDIVIDUALLY chosen during our physical lifetime, after we existed as "NOT A PEOPLE" chosen for God's own possession, your view is unbiblical.

Folks, note how they do not distinguish between corporate or individual election, and thus present half truth as the whole truth.
What Scripture?
 
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