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I just asked you to clarify your argument. You seemed to be saying that a parents love for an unbelieving child is tantamount to a reprobates love for evil things. Now, regarding God's love for all people... John Calvin, and many scholarly Calvinists, even believe that God loves...

Here is the BIG question. If the atonement is sufficient to save all AND God is not looking to save those who freely choose to believe and follow him, but instead is interested in making rocks...oops I means men to cry out; then why doesn't He just make everyone believe and worship? Wouldn't...

So, because God doesn't EFFECTUALLY force all people to believe and not go to hell then he is somehow to blame? In our system God genuinely desires all to come to repentance and provides all that is needed for lost men to do that. Contrast that with a system where God not only doesn't 'stop...

It's not my fault that 'you can't say anything good,' or that your view is 'making God look bad,' or that you 'appear heartless.' Maybe that should tell you something about your doctrine and all its practical implications. :praying:

So, now you are equating a parents love for their non-elect child with our natural fallen love of sinful/evil things??? Is that really the point you want to make? Really?

Go back and read the post again. I said I agree with him and here is why...then I listed three independent arguments as to why I agreed with the assessment of someone who actually knows the original language. Red Herring. We are talking about God's love as it relates to Paul's expression of...

That is just factually inaccurate Luke. Can something happen that God doesn't really want to happen (i.e. sin) and God still accomplish his purposes in, through and despite that thing happening? Or is God just not powerful enough to accomplish His purpose unless he is 'playing both sides of...

Steve, We all understand that you all think the value of the atonement is infinite. No one needs to tell us that again. We get it. That is not what we are asking about. The question is wether the atonement is ACTUALLY sufficient or just HYPOTHETICALLY sufficient. Do you agree with these...

You rightly draw the distinction that I have been asking Luke about for some time now. He wrote... As if I didn't already affirm this many times. :confused: I've argued that it is not the Atonement that does the limiting in Hodge's view, but the unconditional election of those He is going to...

I know I'm going to catch a lot of flak for this one, but I'm simply looking at the facts of the matter and the applied TRUTH of what we each believe. If Calvinism is true, then from these parents perspective, who is doing more harm to their child, the kidnappers who tortured and killed the...

They are not even close to the same problem. Why? We don't make the assumptions you do regarding God's omniscience as it relates to cause/effect within time and space of his creation. He is infinite and we are finite, so to apply your linear reasoning of cause and effect (i.e. if God knew...

Just like parents of children who die in rebellion to God. They love their children more than God did, don't they? Do you love your children more than God loves them? I guess you won't know until you get to heaven to see if they were elect, huh? Must be strange believing in a God who is less...

Yeah, ok. But you take all this time to address the source of someone I happen to agree with on this particular point? SURE. :rolleyes: You think Paul is more loving that the God who inspired his writings, don't you? Just admit it. Paul loved the hardened Jews more than God did, didn't he?

Not just 'Christians,' but specifically those few who go beyond even Calvinism to suggest that God literally means "hatred" (absence of any love) for individuals.

I believe in looking at applied theology. How does ones theology PRACTICALLY affect people in the real world. Too often we discuss these matters as if they really don't impact how we live, counsel and do ministry. Here is an example: Two true stories: Story 1: A house of a missionary...

He was a Messianic Jew, but nevertheless, you, like your cheerleader before you, chose to focus upon the source rather than the content of the argument proving once again that the strongest points of one's argument are not typically reflected in the portion that his opponents address, but in the...

JonC, I think the questions you raise here are the very one's that Calvinistic scholars, such as Shedd and Dabney were attempting to answer. Some here haven't considered such complexities in their studies and regard any distinctions drawn by me (even if from quotes of scholars within their...

The "common grace" of Calvinism = God is insufficiently nice and disingenuously appealing. Not sure why they call that "grace"...

Dabney said, "Certainly the expiation made by Christ is so related to all, irrespective of election..." and "Christ made expiation for every man..." And... "The only New Testament sense the word atonement has is that of katallage , reconciliation. But expiation is another idea. Katallage is...

Kyredneck, I'd rather think of myself as pro-truth, than anti-Calvinistic ;) But that was not the point with which I was taking issue. I was referring to the implication that I was misrepresenting Shedd and the other Princeton theologians. If he has a charge he should quote it and bring an...