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Again, I believe you are all making the error of over individualizing concepts not meant to be understood in that way. Here are the facts: 1. Israel was the ELECT nation of God. 2. Israelites were often referred to as 'elect' or 'chosen ones' due to the first fact. 3. We know that those...

I wonder why He needs to look at their heart since he is the one who irresistibly made it what it is? Shouldn't that say, "Man looks at the outward appearance, by the Lord irresistibly changes bad hearts and makes them good???" :confused:

Take it up with Paul. :laugh:

:laugh: Yeah, because everyone knows that its impossible to understand a concept without accepting it as truth. :rolleyes: I'll allow Charles Hodge take you to school on that: Every man is required to satisfy the demands of the law. No man is required to do either more or less. If those...

"They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved." - Paul

Actually even some reformed scholars would be careful to draw a distinction between regeneration and salvation. You seemed to use the words interchangeably thus causing unnecessary confusion. I know Reformers believe that those who are regenerated will certainly come to faith and be saved, but...

I know, and obviously I disagree with it. But, for future reference you may not want to say, "it is a result of salvation," but instead you should say, "it is a result of regeneration." Because it is a contradiction to say that 'scripture calls men to repent and believe in order to be saved...

So, someone can be saved prior to humble repentance? Sound like you have the cart before the horse considering that scripture calls men to faith and repentance in order to be saved. That is my question: What is considered "Good" and what does God credit as "Good?" My argument is that God...

My view is that the biblical teaching of predestination is not about God preselecting certain individuals. It is about God predetermining to adopt and conform WHOSOEVER believes, whether they are Jew or Gentile. For example, a pilot may predetermine his destination without necessarily...

And? Didn't I acknowledge that above? Are you saying humble surrender and admission of this truth that we are complete sinners is a 'good deed?' And even if you call it 'good' is it really done 'own our own' if its in response to a powerful appeal of the Holy Spirit? I'm just wondering on...

Bobby, A debate forum tends to attract those who at least appear to be very 'sure of themselves' (arrogant). I'm including myself in that because I realize the written word in the midst of a debate carries a tone of absolute certainty. When you read or hear SOME of the more respected scholars...

Then, if you want to understand Arminianism, study grace. :smilewinkgrin:

I often here Reformed folks argue that man cannot do anything 'good' as proof for their doctrine of total depravity. They argue that a response of faith in Christ is 'good' thus it would be impossible for man to do it 'on their own.' There are two problems with this argument: 1. Since God...

Your point wasn't responding to my question. Go back and read it again. You quoted me saying, "If the atonement is sufficient to save all AND God is not looking to save those who freely choose to believe and follow him" And you said "Because no one will freely choose to believe and follow...

So you would agree that it's not the atonement that does the limiting. Instead it is ONLY one's own unbelief that keeps them from being saved, right? Regardless HOW they come to faith (irresistibly or not) it seems you agree that is the ONLY hinderance or legal impediment between a lost man...

petitio principii Since I do affirm that God desired us to make free will decisions this isn't the same problem for me as it is for you. It's the same reason we don't allow men to drug women, marry them, call it love and live happily ever after. We know that relationships based around true...

One, we don't know the cause/effect relationship of God creating, God foreknowing, man's choices and the consequences. Those are all speculations. Two, in one of the systems God is doing everything short of "irresistible force" to call men to repentance and faith so as to help them avoid hell...

Agreed. Which would be like Calvin said, that all other legal impediments have been removed, save only their unbelief. Which would be equal to unconditional election, not atonement. That was my point before. The limiting is not in the atonement, but in the CHOICE of God to elect and...

And if that is true then the ONLY thing between a person and salvation is their own unbelief, right?

Semantics...you all typically use more 'politically correct' terms but its all the same. 'Effectual' is another word for 'Irresistible." And I've heard many Calvinists argue the the word "draw" is best interpreted as "force" or "dragging." I know you all believe men's nature are...