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Mature. Actually it is statements based upon assumptions and you assume Determinism is a given (like math or gravity) which is the fallacy of Question Begging. Just do a little study on the subject of debate fallacies and I think you will see your error. And there you go again. This presumes...

What? You're not already aware of the passages which speak of election? Without even looking I know that would be Romans 9-11, Eph 1 and 1 Peter 2. I think he is probably assuming his readers are already aware of what these passage say.

For those following along, the deterministic premise assumes that the all powerful God couldn't possibly have created free autonomous creatures with the ability of first cause determinations. They ASSUME this is a logical impossibility simply because it can't be fully comprehended or defined by...

Really? You aren't presuming the premise of determinism should be accepted as if it were 2+2=4? Sure sounds like it... Yep. Just like I thought. You equate the Deterministic premise is just a clear and accepted as a simple math equation. That is question begging bro. In fact I can't think of...

Takes one to know one... :smilewinkgrin: Oh, and at least in my system the pride and arrogance of this thread is our doing, not God's doing through secondary causes...

You really think your repeated question begging fallacy of presuming determinism must be accepted is a 'missile lock?' That's cute. False Dichotomy. There is another option which you've yet to actually engage in a debate.

Depends upon how long God has predetermined me to kick against them I suppose. :sleep: I dug? Or the one God dug through secondary causes? Stop giving me so much credit for all the stuff God is doing and be consistent. How do you like debating with God? After all, my stubborn and other...

Maybe but I'm not the one arguing that God's predetermined level of wisdom dictates what choices he will make, are you? In my view, wisdom, which can grow or diminish based on previous choices, circumstances etc, which can influence how one chooses, but the person as whole is the one who make...

yes to both Yes, he determines directly to cause somethings to happen and yes he foresees all that will happen.

I might think about it if I had an any idea what you just said. :confused:

Our view is that GOD chose to create free moral creatures, not that WE created them so spare us this non-sense. And he created us in his image and DIFFERENT from the animals who make choices determined by instinct. You're view of man's moral and reasoned determinations has no real distinction...

It was just a joke. An individual's rational is what makes them an individual and truly autonomous. The alternative is that God made KJVO adherents purposely less rational so as to make them unable to do otherwise, which is truly unreasonable. The fact that you THINK I have denied that there...

:wavey: Thanks quantum!

What a well thought out and thorough argument. I didn't know that all we needed to do was deem others views as "wrong" so as to dismiss them and move on. And here I thought we actually needed to address the actual claims and make sound arguments. :smilewinkgrin: I could have posted links to...

I can understand that, but please note that is not the point I brought up. I know and have acknowledged that Cals don't believe people are wanting in and being turned away at the door. Enough said. There should be no objection then to my use of the same word. And there certainly shouldn't be...

True, it was a title often used in reference to a Jew. Surely you are not denying that I believe this, are you? After all, my view reveals a great love of God for all individuals rather than the 'select few' of your system. Have you been fully adopted yet? According to Paul in Romans 8 we...

I'm not sure about a 'key point' but I remember thinking his work on Prayer was amazing back when I read it in college.

As I've explained to you before: God would be just to condemn us all to hell. Or as one Calvinist put it, "The wonder of God's mercy and grace is NOT that He doesn't save everyone; it is that He even saves ANYONE!" This is the very essence of what I believe, even as a non-Calvinist. God is not...

DaChaser, Van is an Open Theist in that he denies God's perfect knowledge. That is not a Baptist doctrine and contradicts even the most general reading of the boards Profession of Faith, thus is not allowed in a Baptist forum. If he wishes to discuss his views on this subject he will need to...

Keep reading... Did you get to the part about the "dynamic" group versus the "static" group? Here it is again: "General election" (the choice of a group, as opposed to "particular election," the choice of specific individuals) is sometimes ridiculed on the basis that if God chooses a...