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DaChaser, Actually, some of both camps would deny your characterization of the gospel being somehow separated from God's enabling grace, as most scholars acknowledge the power of salvation is always accomplished through the means of His gospel, whether effectually or not.

Pelagians, to my understanding, deny the doctrine of Original Sin; meaning they do not believe men are born in need of a savior. They believe men are born innocent and only become in need of a savior after they commit a willful act of rebellion (sin). Is that what Jerry, Ben and Winman have...

The bold part that states, "hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his son Jesus" is just a long way of saying, "whosoever will believe...." It is not...

Right. God Elective purpose involves his choice of Israel to bring the messiah and the message of redemption to the rest of the world. So, he elected Israel and certain individuals within Israel for a noble purpose regarding the redemption of mankind. Within Israel he chose some to be...

I agree, I just believe that the work of God in calling is also his work of enabling a response. "How will they know and respond unless they hear..." Agreed, but Calvinism claims that Adam wouldn't even be able to respond to the God who is seeking reconciliation. We both believe that God...

1. If neither of us believe we are saved independent of faith then your point is irrelevant. 2. It's not an excuse for their 'going to hell,' per se, but an excuse for their unbelief or rejection of the truth...the very point Paul addresses in Romans 1, thus the argument stands. Exactly...

This statement is a reflection of the false perception many (if not most) Calvinists have regarding the non-Calvinistic view of Election. We gladly affirm that God's election is by HIS Grace and according to his sovereign will. To suggest otherwise is misrepresentative to say the least...

So, according to your view, Jesus' analogy would have been more accurate to suggest that the Judge was secretly causing the women (through effectual means) to continue to beg and bother him? Interesting... Hmmmm.

Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. 2 He said: "In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared about men. 3 And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, 'Grant me justice against my...

I believe someone can understand truth and still reject it, while apparently you believe that if someone understands it then they will necessarily accept it. That is not a biblical concept. Calvinists love quoting 1 Cor 2:14, but I guess they suppose that where the chapter ends they must...

I also meant to point this out... Notice two things. 1. They KNEW God, but chose not the glorify him as God. What about this makes you suppose they were born unable to even understand God or acknowledge Him as God? 2. The "BECAME" vain and foolish and darkened...they weren't born that way...

You said it....'what he CHOSE to do," not what God determined for him to do through secondary means etc... That is the difference. No, that is Paul's conclusion. He said that they are 'without excuse' because they 'clearly saw and understood' God's revelation but chose to trade that truth in...

But neither camp claims that God saves anyone independent of faith, so what's the point in pointing that out? Yes, it says that they can't understand "WITHOUT SPIRITUAL DISCERNMENT." But what about if they do have spiritual discernment like the 'brethren' in Corinth? That is the point you...

Not even his hand of wrath? "And God regretted having creating them...and His anger burned against them" etc And if God has himself chosen to move in response to his Children's requests, that too is His sovereign prerogative, isn't it? "The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective."

Salvation is "By grace THROUGH faith," so the reason one is not saved by grace is because they 'trade the truth (which they clearly see and understand) for a lie.' We agree. And according to scripture He has chosen to save whosoever believes. I'm glad we are in agreement here. The please...

1. If they can't understand it then they have a good excuse for not believing and accepting it. 2. The Bible CLEARLY teaches that men DO UNDERSTAND, which is the very reason they are 'without excuse." 3. Calvinism gives unbelievers the best excuse for their unbelief that exists: "God...

You need to answer two questions: 1. What is "them" in reference to? Refer to verse 10. 2. By what means has God chosen to make these things known to man? Is not Paul, by his very writing of this letter by inspiration of the Spirit, the means of God to 'spiritually discern' the 'meat' of...

And because there is a parallel in acquiring knowledge of math with acquiring knowledge of God that somehow makes it invalid? You are attempting to diminish my view by drawing this parallel as if they are equal, but as I've explained countless times, there is a distinction. I know you like...

He spoke to them in parables so they couldn't understand, then he took his preselected apostles to the side and expounded for them so that they would understand. He inspired the writing of it all in scripture so that everyone who reads it could understand. Amy, please understand, that I'm not...

Are you saying they can't understand that Jesus loves us and died to atone for our sin? Are you saying they can't understand that John was baptizing men who believed in Christ and this was a symbol of death, burial and resurrection? The bible is clear that there will be preachers and...