Examining some of the misguided claims of 316 Tradionalists

[SovereignGrace]

Again, what are you trusting the Lord will do? Are you trusting God will give your child what they deserve, hell? Or are you trusting God will save your child? If you are merely trusting God will do what is Just and Right, then you would be trusting that God will let your child for hell. If your trusting God will save your child, then you believe your trusting is playing a part in God's election. Otherwise, your trusting would be empty and worthless, doesn't matter what you trust the Lord for, it won;t change anything, right?



Why? God might hate their children. Would God require more love out of a fallen sinner than He Himself would give?



No. He should be locked up for life or given the death penalty. No mercy should be given to him by the government. No pardon should be given to him by any governor. But of course government and law is quite different than our subject at hand. Unless you believe our government giving pardons for merits/good behavior is what you see God doing when He pardons sinners.

I am seeing a LOT of this in you...


“Martha, Martha, you are worried and bothered about so many things;”[Luke 10:41b]

 

[McCree79]

This is a red herring. Salvation is ALL of God. I always here the accusation that non-Cals misrepresent Cal's beliefs. Cals do the same thing. God draws, God saves, God allowing a decision does not take anything away from salvation being ALL of God.

Nonsense. ALL of salvation cannot be of the Lord if you have to save yourself.

What are you trusting God for? Are you trusting God will be Just and leave your child for hell? Or are you trusting God will be merciful and select your child for salvation? Remember also, no matter which you choose to trust God for makes no difference to God. Your trusting will not change anything....isn't that a good relationship to have with God?"]What are you trusting God for? Are you trusting God will be Just and leave your child for hell? Or are you trusting God will be merciful and select your child for salvation? Remember also, no matter which you choose to trust God for makes no difference to God. Your trusting will not change anything....isn't that a good relationship to have with God

I trust God in everything. That He will have mercy on whom He he has mercy. That He is just. That His ways are higher than my ways. That all that He calls will come to Him and He will not lose one. That He will fulfill everything He has promised. Those He has predestined, He will Glorify. That He calls not just the Jews, but the Gentiles. He is God of all people groups.

...and no one will trust in God if they are not elect. No one comes to the Son unless the Father calls them....all He calls will come. Those who don't hear His voice are not His sheep.

Your trusting will not change anything....isn't that a good relationship to have with God?"Your trusting will not change anything....isn't that a good relationship to have with God?

It does not change God's plan, which was determined before the foundation of the world.

What does this mean? Calvinist do not worry about whether or not their children will be left to hell? Sounds cold hearted to me. "They have full faith in God"? What does this matter when it comes to whether or not their children they love may be hated by God? What does your "full faith" consist of? Faith God will give your children what they deserve, hell? Or faith God will save them?

Have you forgotten what you wrote so quickly? Your fairy tale story of a Calvinist who can't decide weather or not to have a child, because they don't know if God hates the child. Calvinist do not worry about such. God is faithful and true. Just and merciful. All human beings will treated accordingly to sovereign decrees laid out by the Lord of Lord's. Who has no need to answer to man. He ways are above are ways. No innocent person will ever be punished by God.

They have full faith in God"? What does this matter when it comes to whether or not their children they love may be hated by God?

It must be miserable and scary not to have enough faith in God to trust your child to Him.

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[Iconoclast]

Again, what are you trusting the Lord will do? Are you trusting God will give your child what they deserve, hell? Or are you trusting God will save your child? If you are merely trusting God will do what is Just and Right, then you would be trusting that God will let your child for hell. If your trusting God will save your child, then you believe your trusting is playing a part in God's election. Otherwise, your trusting would be empty and worthless, doesn't matter what you trust the Lord for, it won;t change anything, right?



Why? God might hate their children. Would God require more love out of a fallen sinner than He Himself would give?



No. He should be locked up for life or given the death penalty. No mercy should be given to him by the government. No pardon should be given to him by any governor. But of course government and law is quite different than our subject at hand. Unless you believe our government giving pardons for merits/good behavior is what you see God doing when He pardons sinners.

We trust the Biblical God who always will do what is right gen18:25....we do not trust in carnal reasoning which is what I am reading in all non cal posts.
Our trusting does not change God's elective purposes which are settled. We simply trust and obey as GOD Uses Even godly
Parents as a means of grace.

 

[SovereignGrace]

And you can control your child to fear the Lord?

Teach and leave the results to God.

 

[Rockson]

A Calvinist Christian man and a Calvinist Christian woman fall in love and marry. They like God's command to be fruitful and multiply so they intend to have many children, maybe a full quiver if possible, which they can pour out their love towards. But with their Calvinist views on election they ponder whether or not they should have any children at all, what if God has not elected to salvation the children they may give birth to and cherish? Maybe God will not love them as they would and instead actually hate their children. What should they do? Take a chance their children whom they will love might be hated by God and sent to the lake of fire? Or better just not have any children?

Steaver I'm very much opposed to Calvinistic teachings but you know this same question might be asked and is asked among those on the other side as well. Well if I have kids and they don't choose rightly for God even with God offering Salvation for all? It is heartbreaking to think one can do their best to raise a child and the thought of not perhaps seeing them in Heaven is sad.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And you can control your child to fear the Lord?

In the final analysis Steve, He is a God that values and shows mercy. Nobody is left a victim in Gods Kingdom...unless he or she wishes to be. And I know that some will deny that but it is true. The same wind that can send a ship to safe harbor can also dash it into the rocks. It is the setting of the sail that matters.

 

[steaver]

We teach and they’re not saved, it’s their fault for rejecting God’s word.

Does this make sense to you? You teach them God's Word, but if they are not saved it's their fault for rejecting what you taught them about God. But if they are saved, it had nothing to do with you teaching them about God from God's Word. Have you reasoned this out? Or have you locked yourself into any ability to contemplate the consequences of what you have embraced?

 

[steaver]

Steaver I'm very much opposed to Calvinistic teachings but you know this same question might be asked and is asked among those on the other side as well. Well if I have kids and they don't choose rightly for God even with God offering Salvation for all? It is heartbreaking to think one can do their best to raise a child and the thought of not perhaps seeing them in Heaven is sad.

It would be sad, but at least the promises of God to give them every chance to freely choose would make it justified even if they end up in hell. I would also truly be trusting in God that He has not hated my child, but is more hurt than me that my child would not receive the truth. I also have a promise from God that if i train up my child the way he should go that he will not part from it, though he may fall into sin for a time. The "other side" has a pov of God is Love and is not willing that any should perish, but God is Just and has given a free will to choose. The "other side" stands on a much stronger view of a Holy, Loving and Just God.

 

[steaver]

I am seeing a LOT of this in you...


“Martha, Martha, you are worried and bothered about so many things;”[Luke 10:41b]

I will take that as a compliment, for I would not want the cold heart of not caring whether or not God has chosen to let my child perish in hell just because he was not chosen before he ever committed a sin, before he was ever even born.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Does this make sense to you? You teach them God's Word, but if they are not saved it's their fault for rejecting what you taught them about God. But if they are saved, it had nothing to do with you teaching them about God from God's Word. Have you reasoned this out? Or have you locked yourself into any ability to contemplate the consequences of what you have embraced?

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.[1 Cor. 2:14]

When ppl teach their lost kids the Bible, they can not truly grasp it, yet they’re still commanded to teach them. If they’re saved, it’s because God worked through their parents’ teachings.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I will take that as a compliment, for I would not want the cold heart of not caring whether or not God has chosen to let my child perish in hell just because he was not chosen before he ever committed a sin, before he was ever even born.

Sooo, you think Calvinists have cold hearts, eh?

 

[SovereignGrace]

I will take that as a compliment, for I would not want the cold heart of not caring whether or not God has chosen to let my child perish in hell just because he was not chosen before he ever committed a sin, before he was ever even born.

And in your scheme, I’d be afraid my children chose unwisely.

You put all the blame on God. We put all the blame on ppl rejecting Him and His word.

 

[SovereignGrace]

It would be sad, but at least the promises of God to give them every chance to freely choose would make it justified even if they end up in hell. I would also truly be trusting in God that He has not hated my child, but is more hurt than me that my child would not receive the truth. I also have a promise from God that if i train up my child the way he should go that he will not part from it, though he may fall into sin for a time. The "other side" has a pov of God is Love and is not willing that any should perish, but God is Just and has given a free will to choose. The "other side" stands on a much stronger view of a Holy, Loving and Just God.

What about those that died never hearing the gospel, steaver? How could God give them every chance to be saved, when they died never knowing the Christ even came as a man, lived a perfect, sinless life, died and resurrected three days later?

In your scheme, all salvation is is a chance. Salvation is a covenant, not a chance, steaver.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I will take that as a compliment, for I would not want the cold heart of not caring whether or not God has chosen to let my child perish in hell just because he was not chosen before he ever committed a sin, before he was ever even born.

That wasn’t meant as a compliment or insult, but an observation.

As a preacher, I preach the word and leave the results up to God.

 

[McCree79]

I also have a promise from God that if i train up my child the way he should go that he will not part from it, though he may fall into sin for a time.

Does that verse have anything to do with salvation? How about the very next verse,
"The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower is the slave of the lender."?

Did Adam raise Abel right, but not Cain? Did Isaac raise Jacob correct but not Esau?

If a father has two kids. One accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior, the other lives for the flesh. Did the human father raise one correctly and not the other?

Verse 15 shows we are to discipline and teach to get the folly out of the child. It says nothing of our discipline bringing about salvation.

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[SovereignGrace]

Does that verse have anything to do with salvation? How about the very next verse,
"The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower is the slave of the lender."?

Did Adam raise Abel right, but not Cain? Did Isaac raise Jacob correct but not Esau?

If a father has two kids. One accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior, the other lives for the flesh. Did the human father raise one correctly and not the other?

Verse 15 shows we are to discipline and teach to get the folly out of the child. It says nothing of our discipline bringing about salvation.

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He puts the onus on man’s ability to choose over God’s sovereignty to save.

 

[steaver]

Nonsense. ALL of salvation cannot be of the Lord if you have to save yourself.

Never said anyone saves themselves. you are conflating the subjects. Can a person regenerate themselves? Of course not. Salvation is ALL of God and is available to ALL who will call upon the name of the Lord.

I trust God in everything. That He will have mercy on whom He he has mercy. That He is just. That His ways are higher than my ways. That all that He calls will come to Him and He will not lose one. That He will fulfill everything He has promised. Those He has predestined, He will Glorify. That He calls not just the Jews, but the Gentiles. He is God of all people groups.

Amen! And so do I. But you are straying from the issue. Do you trust God to be Just and send your child to hell? Or do you trust God to have mercy and save your child from hell?

It does not change God's plan, which was determined before the foundation of the world.

What if part of God's plan was to save due to you trusting Him? Or if God's plan was to not save due to you trusting He would be Just rather than merciful? Which are you trusting God for?

Have you forgotten what you wrote so quickly? Your fairy tale story of a Calvinist who can't decide weather or not to have a child, because they don't know if God hates the child. Calvinist do not worry about such.

You make my point. Calvinist do not care if their child is hated by God. Isn't that a sad note?

It must be miserable and scary not to have enough faith in God to trust your child to Him.

Do you mean me or you? I do trust my child to God. The difference is, my trust is that God loves my child and will provide every opportunity to my child for salvation. On the other hand, what are you trusting God to do? You admit your trusting God does not change anything. If God hates your child there is nothing you can do about it. Your beliefs prevent you from teaching your child God loves them and cares for them. Trusting God really becomes meaningless wouldn't you say?

 

[Iconoclast]

I will take that as a compliment, for I would not want the cold heart of not caring whether or not God has chosen to let my child perish in hell just because he was not chosen before he ever committed a sin, before he was ever even born.

This shows a hatred for the biblical God as He has revealed Himself in scripture.You are in no position to question or put constrains upon God...ie, God is only good if He elects all your children??? God is only Holy and good even if He sends you and I and all our children to hell Steaver.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Do you trust God to be Just and send your child to hell?

God IS Just. Anybody who dies in their sins stands condemned. It is because of God’s justice He casts them headlong into hell.

When someone is convicted of a crime, they stand before the judge who renders his sentence. It was because of their crime the judge sentences them. It is because of the unregenerate’s sins God sentence them to an eternal hell.

You’re conflating fairness with mercy. He doesn’t have mercy on everybody, but He is Just.

You make my point. Calvinist do not care if their child is hated by God. Isn't that a sad note?

This is a flat out lie. Repent. Your lie is what is sad. You have more faith in your childrens’ ability to choose than in God’s sovereignty.

 

[Rockson]

Sooo, you think Calvinists have cold hearts, eh?

You're question was to Steaver but...Do Calvinists have cold hearts? I don't think so as I've had many friends of their opinion. I don't think it has to do with the heart but rather the head. I know this sounds like an insult but I mean it only in the way people can be right in their hearts but wrong in their heads. In most Calvinists hearts I don't believe for a moment that they'd believe it to be just that a new born baby who died would not make heaven their home. Their head however caught up in some theological construct freezes them up from believing what they KNOW must be true, that is it'd be unjust in every sense of the word to send a child or an innocent to Hell.