If you are not a “Calvinist”….

[Scarlett O.]

not repent?

Once he believes and obeys, he will repent.

 

[canadyjd]

So are you saying that God had to have had a special revelation with all 7000 that did not bow to Baal Rom 11:4? This would indicate to me that man can turn to God without that. Do you disagree? You have taken a special revelation to certain people and have made it the only way that God can draw people to Himself but the bible disagrees with that view Joh 12:32 “...will draw all peoples to Myself”

While the world in general my reject the truths of God that does not mean the all people do, we have a prime example of someone saved with out hearing the gospel message. How do you deal with the criminal on the cross.

Luk 23:42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Christ Jesus had not died, been buried, or risen so no gospel presentation, yet the man was saved. Correct. The man just asked Christ Jesus to remember him when He came into His kingdom. From your view the man was not saved but Christ Jesus said he was.

You want to limit how God can bring someone to a saving faith but since God is sovereign then He can do what He wants. You point to 1Co 1:21 but please note what it does not say in that verse. It does not say

>> it pleased God {that only} through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.<< While you may think that the hearing of the Gospel is the only way that is not what I see in scripture and I do not think we should limit God in this matter.

I trust that I have answered your questions.

You haven’t directly answered me, but I’ll address what you stated.

I dion’t believe anyone is saved by general revelation found in creation. The 7000 that hadn’t bowed the knee to Baal had the special revelation of the OT Law and the prophets (including Elijah).

The man on the cross had the special revelation of Jesus Christ Himself being on the cross next to him. He heard Jesus speak of His kingdom, asking His Father for mercy for those persecuting Him; the man acknowledged his sin and he asked Jesus to remember him.

I have answered you directly. Please answer me directly.

One more time. Please just answer yes or no. Do you believe the gospel is necessary for salvation? Please, just answer yes or no.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

You haven’t directly answered me, but I’ll address what you stated.

I dion’t believe anyone is saved by general revelation found in creation. The 7000 that hadn’t bowed the knee to Baal had the special revelation of the OT Law and the prophets (including Elijah).

The man on the cross had the special revelation of Jesus Christ Himself being on the cross next to him. He heard Jesus speak of His kingdom, asking His Father for mercy for those persecuting Him; the man acknowledged his sin and he asked Jesus to remember him.

I have answered you directly. Please answer me directly.

One more time. Please just answer yes or no. Do you believe the gospel is necessary for salvation? Please, just answer yes or no.

peace to you

I have answered you you are just not hearing it. I have spoken to many people over the years and many times I have had them trust in Christ for their salvation and have not mentioned the gospel as you seem to think it has to be spoken. You do not give enough credit to God if you think He only uses one way of salvation.

 

[canadyjd]

The context of the passage was that those who challenged him were not his sheep. The "sheep" are followers of Christ (unbelievers are never called "sheep")…..

I believe people are predestined to salvation and to condemnation. The difference is I do not believe God's will is human will (I believe our choices are freely made within God's sovereignty).

The context of that passage is they do not believe BECAUSE they are not of His sheep. Jesus does not say, as you are saying, they are not His sheep because they don’t believe.

The “sheep” do not follow Jesus until He calls them by name. The “sheep of another fold” (Gentiles) do not follow Him until He calls them by name.

Until they respond to His call and follow Him, they are unbelievers.

I honestly don’t understand your statement about predestination to salvation/condemnation and then “free will within God’s sovereignty.” The ideas seem contradictory to me.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

I have answered you you are just not hearing it. I have spoken to many people over the years and many times I have had them trust in Christ for their salvation and have not mentioned the gospel as you seem to think it has to be spoken. You do not give enough credit to God if you think He only uses one way of salvation.

How do they trust in Christ for salvation without telling them about Christ… who He is and what He has done?

peace to you

 

[SavedByGrace]

Once he believes and obeys, he will repent.

Jesus says that it must be, "repent and believe" Mark 1:15, which are together

 

[Silverhair]

How do they trust in Christ for salvation without telling them about Christ… who He is and what He has done?

peace to you

You may think that people have to have all the details but that is not the reality that I have seen. Some people will reject any message as soon as you mention Christ Jesus but they will listen if you just use the term God. As I have said you seem to have put God in a box so that He can only save people if the right words are said.

 

[JonC]

The context of that passage is they do not believe BECAUSE they are not of His sheep. Jesus does not say, as you are saying, they are not His sheep because they don’t believe.

Have you considered you are adding to the passage?

Let's look at it together:

John 10:24–30

(First there is a question)

“How long are You going to keep us in suspense? If You are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”

(Then Jesus answers these people)

“I did tell you and you don’t believe,” Jesus answered them. “The works that I do in My Father’s name testify about Me. But you don’t believe because you are not My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish —ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one.”

Nowhere are the "sheep" presented as unbelieving then to believe.

Christ says His sheep hear His voice. He says He knows them. And they follow Him.

You are adding to Scripture.

 

[JonC]

The context of that passage is they do not believe BECAUSE they are not of His sheep.

I agree. Those who do not belueve, those who are lost, those who are "enemies of God" do not believe because they are not His sheep. And so once we're you.

There was a time when you did not believe. Why? Per your explanation (which is correct) there was a time you were not one of His sheep. The sheep hear and follow.

 

[JD731]

Ok, so those that do not believe love their sin more than Jesus. I guess you believe the opposite is true, that those who are saved love Jesus more than their sin. Is that the difference?

peace to you

Repentance is an absolute when salvation from sin is the subject. There is no salvation without repentance. Christ died so men could have his righteousness given to them, not so they could continue sinning. If sinners could continue in sin then the death of Christ makes no sense. The trade off is sin for righteousness. Repentance and faith is two sides of the same coin. It is like the nickel, heads on the one side and tails on the other, but the same nickel. One can not have the one without the other. sinners who get saved have wrestled with the sin problem and come to have faith that Jesus Christ is the only answer and they have submitted their will to his and trusted that his death for them was really their death. If a person claiming to be saved cannot articulate an experience like this then there is a good chance he has never been born again. Turning over a new leaf is not salvation from sin. This is true of many sinners.

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

What was different about you that caused you to believe the gospel unto salvation and not the guy or lady next to you?

For “Calvinists” the answer is simple. Salvation is a work of God from start to finish.

But for those who dismiss God’s determining the salvation of people, what makes you different from those that reject the gospel?

Please, it’s a serious question.

peace to you

What was different, in a literal way, for me was that I chose to believe the Bible while others didn't. I think all people can equally choose or not choose to believe when God illuminates their minds in that moment. Without that illumination all people will choose to not believe. Man is incapable of choosing Salvation without God's intervention.

God's Elect will always eventually choose to believe when illuminated with God's Grace for their Election is set before the formation of the world, based on God's foreknowledge of their belief.

 

[Revmitchell]

The context of the “sheep” supports my view. Jesus said He had other sheep (Gentiles) not of that fold. He calls them by name as well and they follow Him.

John 17 is a repeated theme that “all the Father gives Him” will be saved. The context does not support your view that Jesus is only speaking about His disciples.

peace to you

In John 17 Jesus prays for His relationship between Him and the Father Vs 1-5, then He prays for the disciples in 6-19, then He prays for those who would believe as a result of the disciples work 20-26.

In verses 6-10 whe Jesus mentions them and they it is only a reference to the disciples.

In vs 6 He says “they have kept your word” can’t be a reference to us we weren’t alive it was only the disciples.

In vs 7 He talks about everything they know. Meaning the disciples

It goes on and on none of which can be a reference to us but only the disciples.

Further, the depth of my answers are always on the same level of the depth of the question. If you want more depth you have to be more specific.

 

[canadyjd]

….

Christ says His sheep hear His voice. He says He knows them. And they follow Him.

You are adding to Scripture.

Jesus also said He calls them by name, then they follow Him.

You are subtracting from scripture

peace to you

 

[JonC]

Jesus also said He calls them by name, then they follow Him.

You are subtracting from scripture

peace to you

No. I said He calls them by name, they hear his voice and follow him.

It is the same today. Jesus is the Head of the Church. His people, the Church, hears his voice and they follow him.

Scripture never speaks of lost people who are elect or ate sheep.

 

[canadyjd]

You may think that people have to have all the details but that is not the reality that I have seen. Some people will reject any message as soon as you mention Christ Jesus but they will listen if you just use the term God. As I have said you seem to have put God in a box so that He can only save people if the right words are said.

I have done what you asked. To keep my views based on scripture. If you believe people can be saved without mentioning Jesus, you need to show me an example in New Testament scripture where this occurred.

I have never said people have to know “all the details”.

Paul says in 1 Cor 15 the things that are first importance and they all focus on Jesus.

What you have posted, that people can be saved without mentioning the name of Jesus is unbiblical at the very least and certainly heretical, imo.

Therefore, regrettably, I see no reason to continue to dialogue with you, since you are denying our Lord and Savior as necessary for salvation.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

I agree. Those who do not belueve, those who are lost, those who are "enemies of God" do not believe because they are not His sheep. And so once we're you.

There was a time when you did not believe. Why? Per your explanation (which is correct) there was a time you were not one of His sheep. The sheep hear and follow.

First of all, I don’t want to discuss this from a personal perspective, but Since you accused me of saying that I believed I wasn’t one of the “sheep” until I believed, I am compelled to correct you.

I didn’t say it and I don’t believe it. I believe the “sheep” Jesus is referring to were chosen before the foundation of the world. At the time of His choosing, Jesus calls those people by name (a specific call to His elect) and they respond with faith, now being saved, and follow Christ.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

No. I said He calls them by name, they hear his voice and follow him.

It is the same today. Jesus is the Head of the Church. His people, the Church, hears his voice and they follow him.

Scripture never speaks of lost people who are elect or ate sheep.

No, I quoted you and you left out that Jesus calls them by name. Look at your post. You left that part out.

So, we disagree about whether scripture refers to lost people as elect or sheep. I believe it clearly does.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

First of all, I don’t want to discuss this from a personal perspective, but Since you accused me of saying that I believed I wasn’t one of the “sheep” until I believed, I am compelled to correct you.

I didn’t say it and I don’t believe it. I believe the “sheep” Jesus is referring to were chosen before the foundation of the world. At the time of His choosing, Jesus calls those people by name (a specific call to His elect) and they respond with faith, now being saved, and follow Christ.

peace to you

Please take a moment to re-read my post.

You are affirming what I said you believed.

I said there was a time you did not believe.

Per your explanation, however, that the sheep DO believe, you were at one time not a sheep (which is actually true per that passage).

 

[Van]

What was different about you that caused you to believe the gospel unto salvation and not the guy or lady next to you?

For “Calvinists” the answer is simple. Salvation is a work of God from start to finish.

But for those who dismiss God’s determining the salvation of people, what makes you different from those that reject the gospel?

Please, it’s a serious question.

peace to you

I see this thread has created 5 pages. I did not read any of the posts. This is simply an answer to the OP

1) What causes people to believe anything? First they must be open to the concept being proclaimed. Thus not hardened by accepting as true false doctrine. People born into Christian homes are brought up in an atmosphere where God is not only existent (I AM) but also God loves us and wants us to receive His blessings. People brought up in another culture, like an Islamic country, or a Communist country would be predisposed to reject God's word.

2) Not sure what you mean by "believe the gospel unto salvation." I think the idea is believing the gospel resulting in salvation as if you can save yourself if you believe all the right things sincerely. That of course is false doctrine.

3) Non-Calvinists do not necessarily "dismiss God's determining the salvation of people." So your premise is a strawman.

4) One key difference in doctrine is whether God credits our faith as righteousness and places us within Christ, or whether God instills "saving faith" in those chosen before they were created.

 

[canadyjd]

In John 17 Jesus prays for His relationship between Him and the Father Vs 1-5, then He prays for the disciples in 6-19, then He prays for those who would believe as a result of the disciples work 20-26.

In verses 6-10 whe Jesus mentions them and they it is only a reference to the disciples.

In vs 6 He says “they have kept your word” can’t be a reference to us we weren’t alive it was only the disciples.

In vs 7 He talks about everything they know. Meaning the disciples

It goes on and on none of which can be a reference to us but only the disciples.

Further, the depth of my answers are always on the same level of the depth of the question. If you want more depth you have to be more specific.

John 17:1 begins with the prayer by acknowledging His authority over every person and then for all the Father has given to Jesus. At a minimum, Jesus alternates between praying for His disciples and praying for all the Father gives to Him.

It is not limited solely to His disciples.

peace to you