Paul was saying the Law shows us to be sinners, The Law declared us guilty sinners, not made us who were already sinners to sin
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Romans 5:12-19 and the source of sin and death in humanity
- Thread starter The Biblicist
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Paul was saying the Law shows us to be sinners, The Law declared us guilty sinners, not made us who were already sinners to sin
How is He doing this,? but to be Human as were were made human
Heb 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Why don't you even grasp what you are saying as you apparently do not! Let me ask you, is Christ God? ANSWER: Yes. Was Adam made in the image of Christ as God in Genesis 1:26? ANSWER: Yes. Was he made in the immutable image of God? No or else there would be no need for a creation again in the image of God as Ephesians 2:10; 4:24 and Col.. 3:10 demand. You are confusing immutability with mutability. The "image of him" that God made us is spelled out for you in explicit moral langauge "righteousness and true holiness" - Eph. 4:24 You are forced to deny God's image in Genesis 1:26 is His image described in Ephesians 4:24; Col. 3:10.
So, how can I say this kindly? Well, I wont say it because I think it is obvious.
I don't have any idea how this response has anything to do with my quotation. You just ignore the evidence placed before you and change the subject.
The text says that one man's disobedience is what "made" many sinners. The law can declare you are a sinner, can show you are a sinner but it cannot MAKE you a sinner but Adam's one act of disobedience MADE us sinners. That is impossible unless we are accountable along with Adam for that one act of disobedience.
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you are correct, this is opposite of Humanism that blames Adam .
Does God punish unjustly? no,
Does He judge the iniquity of the Father to the Son? Does He charge the sin of the Father to the Son?
Romans 5 19 "made " is not create not kathistēmi
to set, place, put
- to set one over a thing (in charge of it)
- to appoint one to administer an office
- to set down as, constitute, to declare, show to be
- to constitute, to render, make, cause to be
- to conduct or bring to a certain place
- to show or exhibit one's self
- come forward as
- come forward as
Rom 5:13
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
We have to consider all evidence shown in all scripture not single out one verse ignoring other and original meanings
We error develope doctrine from Translations , especially English
Brother, let's follow the train to the station...
Adam was created in the Image of God *to some degree* and he wound up Sinning.
We are Created in the Image of Christ/God to a fuller/complete degree and we will never sin again (after glorified perfection).
Those are TWO totally different creations.
So, you want to bear the image of Adam, Pre Fall? Not me brother. I will be bearing the Image of Christ/God at His coming.
The Redeemed sinners right?
I never said that the one sin by Adam "created" us as sinners. We are accounted as sinners legally and made sinners by nature that is "passed" on through generation due to his one action and that is impossible unless we are constituted guilty for that one action because God is not unjust.
Ezekiel 18 refers to fallen men but Romans 5 refers to representative men who act as representatives in the place of others. God appointed Adam to act as our representative and we actually existed in Adam as one indivisible human nature and acted when acted. Hence, we can be justly condemned to death because of his one act of disobedience.
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Brother your train is off the track (lol). Again, how is it reasonable to claim that Adam was created in an inferior moral image while the image of the very Same God in Ephesians 4:24 is a moral image? You are confusing mutable versus immutable but asserting that one image is amoral while the other is moral when they are the very same image of the very same God.
Your alternatives are false. In Adam we obtained the SAME moral image but not in an immutable condition whereas in new birth we obtain the same image in an immutable condition in our spirit (spiritual union) and ulitmately in our bodies in glorification. However, there can be no question that Adam was made "upright" with regard to God's image in Genesis.
Brother, i do appreciate your zeal for the Word and your ability to express your thoughts clearly. You definitely have a gift. I believe we will have to, as you say, agree to disagree agreeably. May God use your teaching gift to produce much fruit for the Glory of Our King and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Brethren, there was no harmatia in existence prior to the one act of disobedience by Adam. Hence, by one man sin entered into the world by his one act of disobedience by that one act of disobedience death entered into mankind because all mankind sinned in the person of Adam as he was both are representative head and we actually existed in Adam as one indivisible human nature.
The absolute proof of this is that death reigned over those living between Adam and Moses even in the womb of the mother before having done any personal good or evil. There can be no death without sin and there can be no sin without transgression of God's law. Yet, the Mosaic Law had no existence during that time. Yet, the law of conscience cannot be that law as infants die in the womb. The only law "all men" had already violate was the law established in Genesis 2:13 otherwise God is unjust in condeming infants to death. That is Paul's argument in Romans 5:13-14.
The absolute proof of this is that death reigned over those living between Adam and Moses even in the womb of the mother before having done any personal good or evil. There can be no death without sin and there can be no sin without transgression of God's law. Yet, the Mosaic Law had no existence during that time. Yet, the law of conscience cannot be that law as infants die in the womb. The only law "all men" had already violate was the law established in Genesis 2:13 otherwise God is unjust in condeming infants to death. That is Paul's argument in Romans 5:13-14.
I certainly enjoy your attitude and commend you for it. Wishing you only the best.
no, why do you blane Adam for your sin?
You did not exist in Adam because sin is spiritual not physical ,
Mat 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Ezekial and Romans are reference sinners the same
Who declared you guilty through Adam?
I don't. I existed and acted in Adam as one indivisible human nature and so I sinned when he sinned. How else do you explain the death of infants in the mother's womb as there can be no death without sin and there can be no sin without violation of the Law of God. How did death reign between Adam and Moses. They could not have broken the law given to Moses as they did not have it. They could not have broken the law of conscience as the cause of death because infants die in the womb. The only law they could have violated is Genesis 2:13 and the only way they could have violated that was as one indivisble human nature as one man by one act of disobedence. That is Paul's argument in Romans 5:13-14.
I most certainly did exist in Adam as Adam is both spirit and material as that is the nature of man and when Adam willfully sinned so did the whole of human nature.
No they do not! Romans explicitly define sin and righteousness in Romans 5:12-19 in connection with two men - Adam and Christ as representatives (Rom. 5:15). Ezekiel refers to post fallen men and their individual sins without any regard to Adam or Christ.
Gentleman, you are either forced to embrace my view or else you must defend death and harmatia as a natural and "good" part of the original creation. How else can you justify the death of infants in the womb? The second alternative cannot be successfully defended but is repudiated by scriptures galore.
Adam, while in a sinless state, still could and did sin and Fall, but Jesus was not able to do that, and neither shall we once glorified!
God declares all of us guilty in the fall of Adam, save for Christ, as Paul stated, the first Adam is over all lost, while Second Adam over all redeemed. Either in Adam or in Christ now!
God declared that all save for Jesus Himself were seen as being in the fall , so all of us save for Jesus would be born in agility and sinful and lost condition/state before God!
Gup20
Active Member
Here is my take on this issue; I believe that the term "original sin" is a misnomer, and should really be termed "original death." It is DEATH that was passed in Romans 5, not sin. When it says "by one man many were made sinners, just as by one man many will be made righteous" do we suppose that those who are being made righteous have any say or part to play in the process? Are there any pre-requisites to those made righteous by the one man, Jesus Christ? Yes, they must have faith. So similarly we can say that BECAUSE of one man's actions, many will be made righteous, and because of this comparison we can say that "because of one man's actions - Adam - many will become sinners" but that latter statement (as the former) does not necessarily exclude the possibility of volitional action on the affected.
So my take is thus; because of Adam's sin, God judged the universe CORPORATELY. God cursed the earth with death (for dust you are and to dust you will return), he did not curse the earth with sin. It is Adam's original death which produces in us the sin nature.
Jhn 8:34 NASB
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
Heb 2:14-15 NASB
14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
1Jo 4:18 NASB
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
Heb 2:14-15 NASB
14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
1Jo 4:18 NASB
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
I believe it is death and the fear of death which makes us slaves to sin and the Sin Nature. Conversely, it is the living Holy Spirit of God in us that makes the Divine Nature accessible to us. Yet, at the indwelling of the Holy Spirit our spirit is alive, yet our body is dead in sin. So the believer is of dual natures.
Rom 8:10 NASB
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Rom 7:24-25 NASB
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Rom 7:24-25 NASB
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
You need to use a chart to plot out all the sides and points in Romans 5 to understand it. Once you do, a pattern emerges. This pattern makes a lot of sense if you apply the notion that Adam's death was a "global" or "universal" or "corporate" judgement and that it applies to all. Yet, remember "death spread to all men because all sinned." Conceptualize it this way... Adam's sin earned the universe a corporate condemnation. Yet, this corporate judgement has always been a JUST judgement because ALL HAVE SINNED (individually) and deserved that judgement.
Rev 5:4-5 NASB
4 Then I [began] to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; 5 and one of the elders said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals."
4 Then I [began] to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; 5 and one of the elders said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals."
That is... until Jesus comes. He WAS sinless. He rendered the corporate judgement UNJUST! He necessitated a repeal of Adam's corporate judgement in lieu of individual judgments.
Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
I was thinking one day... you know, if all of us are guilty of sin "in Adam" than simply forgiving Adam's one sin would "forgive" the whole world. Then I thought ... yeah, but the next person would just sin and screw it all up again... then it dawned on me.... that's kind of what happened. Just as Adam's sin brought death into a world where it didn't exist, so too Christ's righteousness brought life into a world where it did not exist.
1Co 15:21-22 NASB
21 For since by a man [came] death, by a man also [came] the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
21 For since by a man [came] death, by a man also [came] the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
Just as Adam's sin brought death to ALL men, so too does Christ's righteousness bring resurrection to ALL men (both sinners and saints alike). Once resurrected from the first death - or shall we say once Adam's corporate judgement is repealed - then all will be judged again as individuals and THAT second judgement is where we can inherit Christ's righteousness and have it applied to us on the basis of whether or not we had faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. The ones in Christ will be resurrected to eternal life, and the ones without faith will be resurrected to a judgment and a second death.
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