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Sabbath breaking - becomes the mark of the Beast in the future

Darrell C

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Were you just adding clarification to my statement? You call it Law of God, I call it law of Christ. Believe we are talking about the same thing. I will check for typos on my end.

It was mostly in response to this statement:

The Moral law that is written on our heart is the law of Christ. Not the Mosaic law.
How does one divorce the ceremonial, the civil and moral Mosaic laws? You can't. I know Covent Theology has argument for this, but I find it weak.

There is a distinction in Scripture which shows we have to be careful what is in view, the Word of God or the Covenant.

We can divorce ourselves completely from the Covenant of Law because we have been brought under the New Covenant in salvation in Christ.

That does not mean that the intent of the Law is divorced from our understanding because that is precisely what Paul is speaking about when he speaks about Gentiles performing the "works" of the Law without actually having the Law, or being in Covenantal relationship with God through that Covenant.

It was not called the Law of Christ and while we know He is the Author we also have to keep in mind that the Messiah was promised and that there is a specific time in History when God manifested in human flesh and established the New Covenant. What I feel is also important that I think many miss is the fact that the Gospel was not revealed to men in understandable fashion until the Comforter came. With this in mind we understand that while ultimately it is the Law of Christ, we do not forget that Christ gave specific commands and revealed the Law of God in a way which was not understood before.

In other words, while loving our neighbor was taught, the full understanding would be that everyone we come into contact with is our neighbor, and that we are commanded to actually love all, even as God Himself does.

And it is the establishing of the New Covenant which held promise of the eternal indwelling of God Himself through which we can in fact walk in His statutes and keep His judgments, as we now have the mind of Christ.

Perhaps a simpler way to put it is that the heart of the Old Testament Saint should not be compared to the heart we have been given, another promise of God to Israel, which for them remained promise only. We cannot impose the reception of promise before it is actually given, or in other words, it remained promised until established.


God bless.
 

vooks

Active Member
On the contrary Col 2:16-17 points to the animal sacrifice based "sabbaths" that point forward to the cross - the shadows that point forward. Not the memorial that points backward - as in the weekly Sabbath.
Bob

BobRyan like I told you either you are ignorant or a liar like your godess.
PASSOVER Feast is BOTH forward and backward pointing; backward pointing to deliverance from Egypt and forward pointing to our redemption in Christ.

SABBATH Day as well is BOTH forward and backward pointing; backward pointing to creation and forward pointing to our rest in Christ

This means your arbitrary elimination of the weekly sabbath from Colossians 2:16 is unwarranted. You are not the first Adventist to wrest with Colossians. They been at it hallucinating all unimaginable and retarded reasons to eliminate sabbath day from that verse to no avail
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
All of the one-per-year annual feasts/sabbaths of Lev 23 are shadows of the future sacrifice as they are given at the start in animal-sacrifice observance.

That is not true of the Sabbath which we find in Gen 2:1-3 and Exodus 16.

Sabbath points backward - and is celebrated in rest and in corporate worship as we see even in Is 66:23 for all eternity - all mankind continues with that commandment - long after the cross.

A point of continuation for God's moral law - so obvious that even the majority of pro-Sunday scholarship accepts it.

calling everyone ignorant, liars, stupid etc -- may work great on the playground or sandbox but this is not that venue.

in Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Interesting distinction that these guys notice between "moral law" vs ceremonial and civil law.


D.L. Moody is not the only one to claim that the TEN Commandments are given to mankind in Eden and still binding on the saints today.

Baptist Confession of Faith - section 19 almost identical to the Westminster section 19 quoted above.

Notice how they both fit that 7 point summary already posted on page 1?

[FONT=&quot]Baptist Confession of Faith Section 19 link[/FONT]


Section 19:

C.H. Spurgeon's edition of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" -- [FONT=&quot]CH Spurgeon[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

“The Perpetuity of the Law of God”
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]Very great mistakes have been made about the law. Not long ago there were those about us who affirmed that the law is utterly abrogated and abolished, and they openly taught that believers were not bound to make the moral law the rule of their lives. What would have been sin in other men they counted to be no sin in themselves. From such Antinomianism as that may God deliver us. We are not under the law as the method of salvation, but we delight to see the law in the hand of Christ, and desire to obey the Lord in all things. Others have been met with who have taught that Jesus mitigated and softened down the law, and they have in effect said that the perfect law of God was too hard for imperfect beings, and therefore God has given us a milder and easier rule. These tread dangerously upon the verge of terrible error, although we believe that they are little aware of it.

Section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" .

Section 19
. The Law of God

  • God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

  • The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

  • Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

  • To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it
__________________

__________________
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Interesting distinction that these guys notice between "moral law" vs ceremonial and civil law.
You keep on quoting Moody and Spurgeon. These are meaningless quotes. All who post here know what they believed concerning the Sabbath and it wasn't what you believe; it was completely different. They weren't SDA; in fact they repudiated all and every belief of the SDA. In actuality they did not believe in keeping the Sabbath at all as you maintain.
Your dishonesty and hypocrisy is shown every time you use these men as your reference points.
 

vooks

Active Member
All of the one-per-year annual feasts/sabbaths of Lev 23 are shadows of the future sacrifice as they are given at the start in animal-sacrifice observance.

That is not true of the Sabbath which we find in Gen 2:1-3 and Exodus 16.
Just because you say so don't make it. Sabbath is a shadow as well. It is a shadow of the rest we get in Christ. Refer to

Hebrews 4:9-10 (KJV)
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief


Sabbath points backward - and is celebrated in rest and in corporate worship as we see even in Is 66:23 for all eternity - all mankind continues with that commandment - long after the cross.

BobRyan you are obtuse but I don't blame you; years of brainwashing do that
Isaiah 66:23 (KJV)
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another,
and from one sabbath to another,
shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

Will we also be observing the New Moon feasts in eternity?

A point of continuation for God's moral law - so obvious that even the majority of pro-Sunday scholarship accepts it.
Stick to the scriptures or debate with 'majority of pro-Sunday scholarship'. I tutored you that keeping Sunday as a sabbath is WRONG. Exactly what is 'moral' about observing a random day?

calling everyone ignorant, liars, stupid etc -- may work great on the playground or sandbox but this is not that venue.

in Christ,

Bob
Jesus called somebody fox. Am calling you out of love and compassion :thumbs:
 
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vooks

Active Member
You keep on quoting Moody and Spurgeon. These are meaningless quotes. All who post here know what they believed concerning the Sabbath and it wasn't what you believe; it was completely different. They weren't SDA; in fact they repudiated all and every belief of the SDA. In actuality they did not believe in keeping the Sabbath at all as you maintain.
Your dishonesty and hypocrisy is shown every time you use these men as your reference points.
DHK,

Romans 14:5-6 (ESV)
5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.


What honest man can reading this concludes that the contrast here is between those keeping ALL Jewish holy days and those keeping some of these days and not keeping the rest EXCLUDING the weekly sabbath?

There is NOTHING remotely pointing to that here yet BobRyan throws it around as the truth. What prompts men to spin such blatant yarns? Indoctrination. Once you are baptized by swearing to submit to the authority of Ellen White, you are reduced to this.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
You keep on quoting Moody and Spurgeon. These are meaningless quotes.

Until you actually read the quotes.

All who post here know what they believed concerning the Sabbath and it wasn't what you believe; it was completely different. They weren't SDA; .


hint: Which is why they are quoted --

I am showing the case where on certain points - BOTH sides agree.

As has been pointed out to you a few dozen times.

You circle back with nonsense of the form "yes but TWO sides are not just ONE side, you are quoting from the opposing side and showing a point where they agree" as IF I had said "let me quote just ONE side and show how objective it is to do so". The whole point was to quote pro-SUNDAY sources.

Why you insist on circling back to that nonsensical point -- I will never know. I have yet to see you defend such nonsense.

The other nonsensical point that is argued is that if opposing sides do not agree on every point in the universe - then they do not agree on any point.

But as vooks and chowmah demonstrated for you - that is simply not true as well.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Darrell C

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Interesting distinction that these guys notice between "moral law" vs ceremonial and civil law.

But it is not to "these guys" we look to understand the Covenant of Law versus the New Covenant.

It's these guys...

Christ.

Paul.

John.

The writer of Hebrews.

Peter.

Matthew.

Mark.

Luke.

Jude.


This was the norm in Christ's day for an appeal to authority:


Matthew 23:1-3

King James Version (KJV)

23 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.



The writer of Hebrews makes it clear that the Covenant of Law was not at fault, but that men had the fault. Thus it was necessary that a New Covenant be established. It was promised, and given.

There is nothing in the New Testament where we are commanded to observe the Sabbath.


God bless.
 
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McCree79

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
It was mostly in response to this statement:


We can divorce ourselves completely from the Covenant of Law because we have been brought under the New Covenant in salvation in Christ.

I have no issue with that.

I mean to say divorce moral law, ceremonial law and moral law from each other. Most believe that we have thrown away 2 of 3. You are under the law or you are not. We of course are not.

Thanks for catching my misstatement. I will go back and fix it.

*well, apparently it has been too long ago to edit. Thanks for catching it though.
 
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Darrell C

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I have no issue with that.

I mean to say divorce moral law, ceremonial law and moral law from each other. Most believe that we have thrown away 2 of 3. You are under the law or you are not. We of course are not.

Thanks for catching my misstatement. I will go back and fix it.

*well, apparently it has been too long ago to edit. Thanks for catching it though.

You might find "Being saved and the 10 Commandments" interesting.

There...the OP denies the New Covenant altogether, lol.

I think this issue is a result of extremism, which is a danger for both sides. Both legalism and antinomianism are to be avoided.


God bless.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Those who think Christ was a legalist or taught legalism in Mark 7 need to re-think it.

Those who think we must flee from the NEW Covenant in Heb 8 and Jer 31:31-33 because it sounds a bit like Christ's teaching in Mark 7... need to re-think that.

Paul says the chapter is about making stuff up and not judging based on wild things "made up" -- man-made tradition.

Some have argued that there is no way that things could have been "made up by man" when it comes to eating, drinking, sabbaths etc -- that in fact only scripture, the Word of God, is being condemned in Col 2 -- and not the man-made practice of "making stuff up".

But they ignore the fact that in Mark 2 we already have gospel proof of 'making stuff up being condemned by Christ" as it relates to Sabbath observance.

In Mark 7 we have "making stuff up being condemned by Christ" as it related so eating and drinking and things given to the church - dedicated to God.

[FONT=&quot]Mark 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 For laying aside the commandment of God,ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]all of th[FONT=&quot]ese examples of 'makin[FONT=&quot]g stuff [FONT=&quot]up' are condemned whether they be before the cross as in Mark 2 and Mark 7 or after the cross as in Col 2.

[FONT=&quot]in Christ,

[FONT=&quot]Bob[/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Until you actually read the quotes.
Bob says: "I believe in Jesus"
A Muslim says: "I believe in Jesus too."

The quotes are the same Bob. But they mean about the same as the quotes from Moody and you.
How much do Muslims and you have in common with Jesus?
How much does Moody and the SDA have in common with the Sabbath?
The answer is the same.
 

vooks

Active Member
Originally Posted by BobRyan View Post
Turns out that in Romans 14 the verses you carefully ignore

Paul addresses the observance of the Lev 23 annual holy days where "one OBSERVES one ABOVE the others and another OBSERVES all of them... he who OBSERVES the day OBSERVES it for the LORD".

BobRyan you are a serial liar just like Ellen White your godess

Romans 14:5(KJV)
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.


The contrast is between esteeming a day above others and esteeming EVERY DAY alike.

It is self evident to all but the terminally brainwashed that esteeming EVERY DAY alike is indifference to days as a Gentile was wont to and NOT esteeming some of the Jewish holy days.
Why would anybody esteem some Jewish days while ignoring others?

And if this is not enough look at verse 6
Romans 14:6
He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.

The contrast is between one regarding a day and one not regarding it, and NOT as you fantasize one regarding some Jewish days as opposed to all Jewish holy days.

BobRyan regards sabbath to the Lord
Vooks regards not the sabbath to the Lord
How is BobRyan better than me?:tonofbricks:
 

Alcott

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I thought Herby Armstrong was dead. When did he change his name to Ryan? when he was 110?
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Bible students beware - when the mere quote of Bible texts are sufficient cause to give rise to strong objection to them and unchristian ad hominem.

By their fruits you shall know them.

Those who think Christ was a legalist or taught legalism in Mark 7 need to re-think it.

Those who think we must flee from the NEW Covenant in Heb 8 and Jer 31:31-33 because it sounds a bit like Christ's teaching in Mark 7... need to re-think that.

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Paul says the chapter is about making stuff up and not judging based on wild things "made up" -- man-made tradition.

Some have argued that there is no way that things could have been "made up by man" when it comes to eating, drinking, sabbaths etc -- that in fact only scripture, the Word of God, is being condemned in Col 2 -- and not the man-made practice of "making stuff up".

But they ignore the fact that in Mark 2 we already have gospel proof of 'making stuff up being condemned by Christ" as it relates to Sabbath observance.

In Mark 7 we have "making stuff up being condemned by Christ" as it related so eating and drinking and things given to the church - dedicated to God.

[FONT=&quot]Mark 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 For laying aside the commandment of God,ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]all of th[FONT=&quot]ese examples of 'makin[FONT=&quot]g stuff [FONT=&quot]up' are condemned whether they be before the cross as in Mark 2 and Mark 7 or after the cross as in Col 2.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
=============================================
 

Darrell C

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Well... thankfully no one has shown that to be true in real life, unless unchristian "name-calling" is a new form of Bible "proof" for doctrine.

in Christ,

Bob

Name-calling is the next tactic when one runs out of proof-texts.

;)

Don't let it bother you. Stick with doctrinal discussion and the Lord will put the pieces together for us.


God bless.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
If the OP is not consistent with the new covenant as you stated in your post - then there has to be some Bible discussion of it that shows that idea to be true.

I would argue for example that Christ's teaching in Mark 7 is not in contradiction to the New Covenant but in harmony with it.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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