Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So your saying God contradicts Himself?
The reality is that you are trusting what a group of men have told you that the bible says.
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They deny the Saving Efficacy of the Death of Christ !
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So your saying God contradicts Himself?
The reality is that you are trusting what a group of men have told you that the bible says.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Just pointing out the truth BF. You continue to post views that do not comport with scripture. You fail to understand the clear word of God.
So it is either that you lack the ability to read and understand the clear word of God or you make a deliberate effort to deny it.
Which is it BF?
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Sounds like something you are unjustly applying to me
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
When you lose an argument you insult your opponent
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You hold to a view that did not exist in the church until the 4 century.
But if you think I have made an unjust application then show where I was wrong.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Not an insult just a conclusion that is drawn from the posts that you make.
You continue to deny clear scripture BF.
Just pointing out the truth BF. You continue to post views that do not comport with scripture.
You fail to understand the clear word of God.
So it is either that you lack the ability to read and understand the clear word of God or you make a deliberate effort to deny it.
Which is it BF?
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Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
I say I hold to scripture and show it to you
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Its an conclusion that is an insult
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
But what you say does not agree with the scripture that you post.
Pulling verses out of context does not mean they support your view BF.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Then show where my conclusion is wrong.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Christ Death , stripes Justified before God and Reconciled to God those He died for because it made Peace with God for them. Again Isa 53:5
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Eph 2:14
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Col 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
This Peace is is the consequence of being healed by His stripes and Justified and reconciled. We cant have Peace with God and be unreconciled and unjustified !
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Eph 2:14
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Col 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
This Peace is is the consequence of being healed by His stripes and Justified and reconciled. We cant have Peace with God and be unreconciled and unjustified !
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
BF I have never questioned the fact we have peace with God through the cross. God reconciled {brought into friendship from a state of disagreement or enmity} us to Himself through Christ. But reconciled does not mean saved BF. You jump to that unwarranted conclusion because your religion requires it.
Rom_5:10 For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life!
Note what it say BF, reconciled by Christ's death, saved through His life.
We are not saved at the cross BF. But all mankind can be saved through faith in the risen Christ.
When and why are we justified?
Rom_5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Gal_3:24 So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
We are told to have faith in the risen Christ BF. You maintain that we do not need to do that as we are saved at the cross. But the bible disagrees with you.
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
My question for you is why do you continue to deny clear scripture?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Lets see what scripture says, "the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD to make atonement by sending it into the wilderness as the scapegoat." Lev 16:10
But how does this happen "Then he is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the iniquities and rebellious acts of the Israelites in regard to all their sins. He is to put them on the goat’s head and send it away into the wilderness..." Lev 16:21
So we see that the scapegoat was too carry the sins of the people just as Christ carried the sins of mankind. "He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness." 1Pe_2:24
What do I need to read again @Aaron? The text is clear. 1Jn 2:2 ""And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world."
That you have come up with your own definition for "propitiation" does not alter the actual meaning.
Your religion needs propitiation to mean "removal of sin" but that is not what it means
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Then defend yourself BF. If you think I have wrongly accused you of something defend your position from scripture in context.
You can bleat all you want by if you do not defend your position then it would logically mean that you cannot do so.
Very good. God's picture book has a way a clearing things up. You still need your readers though.
This is all part of Christ's one offering. You cannot disentangle the scapegoat from the blood on the Mercy Seat. It's all part of the meaning of being the Propitiation.
Which people?
The elect. I will point you...again...to the breastplate of the high priest.
Amen.
Meaning, not only for the Jews, but also for the elect of every nation. The word "propitiation" is used only twice, and both times where the audience is primarily Jewish, and who would more readily understand the reference.
LOL. You're the one willy nilly dividing up the sacrifice, and with no rhyme or reason other than your carnal little notions of justice. To know the scope of the definition, one must know the law. And you evidently don't.
See above.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You do have a twisted way of understanding the word of God. Christ is the atoning sacrifice that propitiated God the Father and allows Him to propitious to those that will freely trust in His son.
The fact you cannot or rather will not actually believe what propitiation means is the reason your understanding of the text is faulty.
The whole world
Are you a Jew, are you under the law? We do not live under the old covenant but rather the new.
Christ is the elect one and we are only part of the elect when we are in Him and that only happens when we freely trust in Him.
That has to be one of the lamest argument I have seen in quite a while. Is the whole world only the Jews Aaron?
Well it is clear that you missed it but most people that read it do not have that problem. It seems to be confined to those of the C/R religion.
Well since I am not under the law I do not have to but you seem to think you can keep the law as you keep going back to it, good luck with that.
Christ covered our sins at the cross but we have salvation through faith in the risen Christ. Do you see any other way that through the living Christ?
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
@Silverhair
Yes you have, thats Peace in Salvation ! You said point blank and unashamedly that The Cross of Christ saved no one. Again Peace at the Cross and Salvation are equivalents Isa 52:7
How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
You ever heard of the Gospel of Peace ? Rom 10:15
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Eph 2:17
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
How can one have Peace with God and yet not be saved from their sins and Gods wrath ?
Yes you have, thats Peace in Salvation ! You said point blank and unashamedly that The Cross of Christ saved no one. Again Peace at the Cross and Salvation are equivalents Isa 52:7
How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
You ever heard of the Gospel of Peace ? Rom 10:15
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Eph 2:17
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
How can one have Peace with God and yet not be saved from their sins and Gods wrath ?
So, all Scripture is profitable, except Leviticus?
I am a Jew inwardly, and my circumcision is of the heart. I am a child of Abraham by faith. That is the real kind of Jew, according Paul. Not only that, but I am part of a holy priesthood, serving in the true tabernacle, offering up spiritual sacrifices.
Moses' work was a testimony and pattern of the work Christ would do. How can you claim to know anything about the Atonement of Christ, if you refuse to be instructed by the model of it?
Unwilling to compromise about the Word of God indeed...
Because you can't show me Egypt's stone on the breastplate of the high priest, you can't say that anyone but the elect, however you define them, have their sins removed by the Atonement of Christ.
You're getting there.
No, that's not correct, BF!
The Scripture clearly says, "whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire."
They were cast in the Lake of Fire because they didn't repent and believe.
So Christ dying on the Cross didn't save anyone, He made it possible to be saved.
As I've told you dozens of times, repenting and believing are the conditions for salvation.
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