Arminians/non cals only respond here

You're right on the money here, and there is no need for benjamin to continue to get by with this.

 

Please tell me how anyone here is in agreement with the doctrines Spurgeon denounced in the quote provided by Ps.

What "message of darkness"? Calvinists and Arminians all agree that only the elect are saved. Only the people whose names have been written in the Lamb's Book of Life will ultimately be saved and go to glory. These are the foreknown,predestined,called,justified and glorified ones.

Is that darkness to you?!

 

In my experience. If someone does not believe God loved the world that He sent His Son and He wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth the way we do.

That if you don't see world and all the way they do you are not mature enough.

You are not going to convince them the way we see scripture who do believe the world and all is just that.

Like I said it comes down to this. I do not try to reconcile scripture nor do I try to mold scripture, and I can easily walk away from those who do.

Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble. The remnant of Israel will trust in the name of the LORD.

Matthew 10:33
But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

Psalm 69:28
May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

1 Peter 2:6
For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”


Jesus will not ever say He never knew those who brings the sword the words of Life who spread the message that He sent them out with, casting out demon bringing the words of life for the dead in His name.



To those who brought the real sword murdering people, hanging them, beheading them, drowning them, burning them, those who they thought where demon for their own purposes in the name of Jesus. Crusades of murder. They will be the one's Jesus will say I never knew you go away you evil doer.

Jesus knew they where coming.

The words of men or made of metal is not the sword God sent us out with

 

I don’t have time to wade through the semantic ambiguity of a dozen hyper-determinists on this board and try to pin them down on the logical conclusions to their preaching doctrines of predestination. Put down your Pink for a while and read about how preaching predestination becomes a doctrine full of blasphemy here:

http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/128/

 

Terrible article. And it appears that you are promoting an article that says we teach blasphemy. That's totally uncalled for. The problem is that people look at predestination (which is clearly taught in Scripture) through their own perspective. So any "logical" conclusion is from the wrong perspective.

Here's a few problems. First, God isn't obligated to offer grace to anyone much less "all." Man is a sinner and deserves hell. So to make an argument about Calvinism not being for all isn't valid because God doesn't have to do that. Secondly, It is available, in the Calvinistic system, to anyone. God doesn't reject one that wants to get saved.

The problem is that without election, man is going to hell. This acts as if man is in some neutral setting and then God elects some to heaven and some to hell. (again, perspective problem again when dealing with logical conclusions). So election is for salvation. Everyone that goes to hell goes there because 1) he is a sinner that deserves hell and 2) has rejected Jesus Christ. Unless one is prepared to deny the power of God to save all, he must admit that God has chosen to allow some to go to hell.

again, forgetting about the means by which God saves his people.

 

In my posts (#79 and #82) I was as clear as can be. And yet you say that you don't have time to wade through it??

I am surprised that mods have allowed you to continually reference Calvinists as preaching a message of darkness. And,apparently, they have allowed you to say that preaching predestination is full of blasphemy. But I guess they have more important matters to attend to.

 

A few choice quotes from John Wesley's Free Grace screed.

He said predestination "represents the most holy God as worst than the devil,as both more false,more cruel,and more unjust."

"I abhor the doctrine of predestination."

And if any of you have wondered what the origin of something that has been laid at the feet of Calvinists for so long :

"...by his eternal decree fixed before they had done good or evil,causes children of a span long,but the parents also,to pass through the fire of hell."

Later John Wesley had another message called Predestination Calmly Considered. John Gill rebutted it in a comprehensive manner to it in 1752.

George Whitefield responded to the Free Grace message with : A Letter From George Whitefield To The Rev. Mr. John Wesley.

Whitefield told Wesley that the latter dishonored God by denying election.

George Whitefield also told Wesley that J.W. denied articles 9,10 and 17 of the Anglican Articles. Every Anglicasn minister made a solemn oath that he believed and would teach the same. J.W. went back on his pledge. But Billy Sunday and Charles Finney among other notables broke their vows when,as ministers of the Presbyterian Chuirch they swore that they would be in compliance with the Westminister Confession of Faith.

 

We do not preach against those who are predestined by God before even the foundation of the world nor those who God is including through them.

Rev 7 shows those who are predestined an elect and those that are included. One group sees one side of the coin another sees the other side and fight and bicker of the grace of God saying He can only save the way I see it.

Jesus looked out to the multitude and said so they were goats without a herder, no He didn't He said they were sheep without a shepherd. How can there be included without the first fruit and how can those be included without them being sent out. The harvest is many but the workers are so few, we need to pray to the Lord of the harvest to send out more workers.

Jesus didn't have problems with those who believe in Him, but the leaders who thought they knew everything. They wouldn't be taught by a Carpenter different from what Pharisees and Sadducees have been teaching for thousands of years they couldn't be wrong.

 

AS per the OP and me being in disagreement with someone (or Iconoclast) (post #4-5) who would be ashamed to tell someone they had real hope (because according to his dark doctrine he doesn’t know if they had been pre-elected or not) and further would let them have it (if they scoffed or mocked him) “that God has not planned to save everyone”….well…Rip, if I was witnessing and someone came up and started injecting that kind of hyper-Determinist dogma into the message of hope and light for all…grr…well…you can put it in the bank that that seeker would get a clear picture of how the Liar/the Devil and his helpers work to lie to him with the example I made out of that hyper-Determinist and his “message”!!! Hence: my forewarning to Iconoclast that “No, I wouldn’t want to hear how he preach the Gospel to someone struggling with their faith AND he wouldn’t want to spew that pre-selected dogma in front of me in that kind of situation"! …Before he went ahead and did it (possibly in front of someone lurking on this board who is a seeker) while hiding behind his keyboard and later thinking himself clever to re-open two more treads on the subject without the context of the argument and looking for support from his “kinsmen” who would revel in proclaiming the same message. (being allowed on this board)

Rip, you want to whine about the rules of this board and about me calling a duck a duck?! Take it up with Jesus: (1Jn 1:5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

1John gives just one small taste of that it is a lie/a false doctrine to declare a fore-determined pre-selected/predestined few because it logically denies creaturely responsibly of ALL God’s creatures by denying his ABILITY to CHOOSE, the light given to ALL men; hyper-Determinism logically gives men an EXCUSE in that they may not have been specially pre-selected…hence, hyper-Determinism denies the truth of God’s justice (Deut 32:4) …and now for the rest of the story in 1Jn 1 concerning responsibility, justice, God’s light in the world and those who would preach otherwise:

(1Jn 1:6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

(1Jn 1:7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

(1Jn 1:8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

(1Jn 1:9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

(1Jn 1:10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

Preaching predestination becomes blasphemy? That statement in itself is blasphemous.

Paul preached predestination, via the Holy Spirits inspiration in his letters.

To lay this charge to the brethren is uncalled for, and ingracious, and against Biblical revelation.

The link at best is horrendous that was provided, and even at that, is from a United Methodist source.

Preaching predestination is blasphemous, a doctrine full of blasphemy?

Nonsense and error here to the one making such unfounded statements.

 

No respect for one of the great preachers of the Word in history?

 

Some well-needed wisdom from the pages of the Sword and Trowel:

"They are always posing themselves and others with questions which are hard to be understood, while the simple gospel they neglect. If they could understand the mystery of predestination, and untie the knotty points of man's free-will and God's fore-ordination, they dream that things then would go well with them, whereas there is no more connection between salvation and the understanding of the mystery of predestination than there is between cracking nuts and healing the sick. The two things are entirely distinct. A man may know little enough about the doctrine of grace, and yet he may have the grace of the doctrine in his heart. It is well to know all mysteries, but without faith in Christ Jesus, who alone can save us, it would profit us nothing."

 

"Free agency we may believe in, but free will is simply ridiculous."

(Spurgeon)

Man is a free agent. But man has no free will. (George Bishop)

 

"I believe in the free agency of man, that man acts as he wills, especially in moral operations--choosing to commit evil is "unbiased by anything that comes from God, biased only by his own depravity of heart and the perverseness of his habits."

Spurgeon

Can you understand it, for I cannot, how a man is a free agent, a responsible agent, so that his sins is his own sin and lies with him and never with God? I cannot comprehend it, without hesitation I believe it, and rejoice it to be so.

Spurgeon

 

From cover to cover, the Bible teaches that divine sovereignty and human responsibility are compatible with one another, nowhere does the Bible even suggest that the affirmation of divine sovereignty leads to the denial of human liberty.

Douglas J. Wright

 

The scandal of the Calvinist system is that ultimately the logical problem posed cannot be fully resolved. The final resolution to the problem of human responsibility and divine justice is beyond rational capacity.

Thomas Schriener

 

This is the awesome biblical asymmetry. God ordains sin and man is to blame.

Edwin Palmer