Confess and Believe

[1689Dave]

If you believe you are saved with out faith then why your concern when you meet others who do not accept your point of view?
MB

I didn't say that. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit God must provide before you can believe in any true sense.

 

[Reynolds]

It has all the characteristic of law when you replace grace with works.

You consider faith a work?

 

[1689Dave]

You consider faith a work?

It turns grace into works and the gospel into law if it becomes a legal condition for salvation. It is a work of the flesh in this setting. But true faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit one must have before they supernaturally believe and then respond.

 

[loDebar]

The basic problem with this view is that it presents faith of humans as an attribute that was not corrupted by the fall, and sin.

To accept that human faith was in fact part of the fallen and incapable of righteous response, an alternative was necessary.

That lead to the invention of prevenient/preceding grace.

Not a single verse in the Scriptures support this human construct. To avoid the truth of Scriptures, people will invent and believe whatever supports their thinking especially when the it involves the matters concerning the eternity’s estate.

Grace was extended before the fall of man, Grace is not the ability to make a righteous response but the ability to have a righteous outcome to our action. We cannot provide Salvation , but God did.

 

[Reynolds]

It turns grace into works and the gospel into law if it becomes a legal condition for salvation. It is a work of the flesh in this setting. But true faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit one must have before they supernaturally believe and then respond.

Paul must have bout understood that.

 

[1689Dave]

Paul must have bout understood that.

Paul taught salvation by grace.

 

[MB]

I disagree that Adam was not born with eternal life. But that discussion is for another sin.

The Scriptures teach all have sinned, therefore all die. Why one sins is also fore another thread.

One has no ability because the Scripture states, all come short of meeting God’s standard, that includes human faith.

If Adam had eternal life He'd still be alive. There are no interruptions in eternal.
MB

 

[MB]

Do you not remember the souls in eternal condemnation are forever alive?

Some believe in annihilation, but that is heresy. You do not.

They could not be in torment for ever unless they were alive to experience it. Amen
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

Faith is God given in the sense that we are created by God and therefore can have faith.

This has no biblical basis, scripture says not all have faith.

 

[MB]

Then why do non-calvinists teach the same things.

Because you follow Calvinism. That is what other Calvinist have convinced you of. Calvinism is not in scripture.

By acknowledging man’s innate inability they invented a scheme not found in the Scriptures they call prevenient or preceding grace.

They refer to the sin of Adam as his fall.

They teach that because Adam sinned, it is the condition of all, for all have sinned.

MB, you are denying some of the very teaching non-Calvinistic thinkers teach from pulpits every Sunday.

Are you denying that souls either reside in heaven or the second death forever?

There will be those saved and those lost. And I deny most all of Calvinism.
MB

 

[MB]

In the Reformed Ordo Salutis (Order of Salvation) "salvation" is in the name. It is not a component part. It is repentance that precedes faith, not "salvation". The Reformed Ordo Salutis is:

1. Election/Predestination
2. Atonement
3. Gospel Call
4. Inward (Effectual) Call
5. Regeneration
6. Faith and Repentance (Conversion)
7. Justification
8. Sanctification
9. Glorification

This is not found in scripture. It was written by men not spiritually inspired.

 

[Iconoclast]

What I meant to say is that man is corrupt. In fact man's flesh is still corrupt even after Salvation. Adam's sin is not inherited by man. We are not guilty of his sin. Yes we all die because we were not born with eternal life, neither was Adam created with it. All men are totally unrighteous before Salvation and there is nothing in scripture that says because of Adam's sin we all have this inability to respond to the gospel or seek God.
MB.

You are completely denying biblical revelation concerning Adam as our federal head and the fall into sin and death
It is not possible to come to a correct understanding of salvation when this happens
Rom3:23 says all sinned at one point in time. You deny this.when you do, you deny the whole passage

 

[Iconoclast]

Because you follow Calvinism. That is what other Calvinist have convinced you of. Calvinism is not in scripture.

There will be those saved and those lost. And I deny most all of Calvinism.eludes you
MB

That is why truth eludes you and it will unless and until you deal with the passages you explain away.

 

[MB]

If you are starving and dehydrated, and someone throws a meal ticket at your feet, you are he one who saves your life by picking it up and using it.

Not true because the man with the meat does not have to give it. So in fact he does save a life.
MB

 

[1689Dave]

Not true because the man with the meat does not have to give it. So in fact he does save a life.
MB

But the final savior is the one who chooses to eat.

 

[MB]

You are completely denying biblical revelation concerning Adam as our federal head and the fall into sin and death
It is not possible to come to a correct understanding of salvation when this happens
Rom3:23 says all sinned at one point in time. You deny this.when you do, you deny the whole passage

I am denying what you cannot prove with scripture.
No I am not denying Rom 3:23 all have sinned but not in Adam which is not in scripture..
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

This is not found in scripture. It was written by men not spiritually inspired.

It is found in scripture, that is why they listed.it as they have.you just hate that it is so scriptural that you cannot deal with it except to just deny it w

I am denying what you cannot prove with scripture.
No I am not denying Rom 3:23 all have sinned but not in Adam which is not in scripture..
MB

The verse goes not mean all have sinned by their own experience(which we have).
It means...all sinned at one point in time.All sinned in Adam in the garden...that is exactly what it means and that is exactly what you deny.
It is written in the aorist tense...look it up.

 

[Iconoclast]

This is not found in scripture. It was written by men not spiritually inspired.

It is found in scripture, that is why they listed.it as they have.you just hate that it is so scriptural that you cannot deal with it except to just deny it wholesale.

 

[MB]

But the final savior is the one who chooses to eat.

According to whom ? You. You are not qualified to make such a judgement. Everything is a work to Calvinist even faith but faith is not a work. The word work implies physical labor. There is no physical labor in eating, or believing, or Choosing Christ. We are not commanded to believe. Yet if we do not believe we are lost. With out belief or faith there can be no salvation. Scripture says so and you deny this. In fact IMO Calvinist deny most of scripture by trying to make it agree with there doctrines.
MB

 

[1689Dave]

According to whom ? You. You are not qualified to make such a judgement. Everything is a work to Calvinist even faith but faith is not a work. The word work implies physical labor. There is no physical labor in eating, or believing, or Choosing Christ. We are not commanded to believe. Yet if we do not believe we are lost. With out belief or faith there can be no salvation. Scripture says so and you deny this. In fact IMO Calvinist deny most of scripture by trying to make it agree with there doctrines.
MB

What happens if you refuse to respond?