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Fermented and Unfermented Wine

"Take a little honey" means grape juice?

For the authors of your "dictionary" that you failed to give a name for to get "grape juice" out of "take a little honey" requires a good imagination, I guess.

There is no indication in the Word of God that debash was ever used to signify grape juice.

Have it your way.

Similiarly, there is no indication that "wine" ever means grape juice.

And there is no indication that anyone boiled their grape juice.

Yep, plain old wine is all the Bible talks about. Fermented and well refined.
 

Steadfast Fred

Active Member
"Mevushal kosher wine, as mentioned, is wine juice that in Temple times was boiled or cooked to distinguish wine used by Jewish people from wine that was used by people of other faiths or pagans who used non-boiled or non-cooked wine for religious rituals. Although non-boiled or non-cooked wine - whether used or potentially used for pagan worship - as well as even those non-boiled or non-cooked wines that were not designated for pagan worship - were banned for use by Jewish people by the Talmudic Sages, wine which was boiled or cooked rendered the wine unfit for pagan rituals, and so this type of wine was permitted for use by Jewish people by the Talmudic Sages. Nowadays, however, Mevushal wine is wine juice that may still be cooked or boiled but most often is now flash pasteurized to a temperature that Jewish law considers appropriate for the wine juice to be called cooked or boiled; for instance, a temperature of 203 degrees Fahrenheit (95 degrees Celsius) for a few seconds to better preserve the quality and structure of the wine as it was in its non-Mevushal state, whereupon the flash pasteurization process is followed by rapid cooling of the wine. The wine juice of Mevushal kosher wines can also be cooked or boiled by being heated to a temperature of either 175 degrees Fahrenheit (79.44 degrees Celsius) or 185 degrees Fahrenheit (85 degrees Celsius) - depending on the authoritative rabbinical opinion one follows - for one minute, followed by a rapid cooling of the wine. Mevushal kosher wine - once produced - is wine that can be handled - meaning opened and served - by anyone, whether Jewish (Sabbath-observing Orthodox-Jewish male or non-Sabbath-observing Jewish male or female) or from another faith - and according to Jewish law, this type of wine will remain kosher regardless of who handles it."
http://www.angelfire.com/pa2/passover/kosher-wine/

OK, it appears the process, prior to fermentation, was to differentiate Jewish RITUAL wine from that of pagans, i.e. KOSHER WINE.
They boiled their wines before the wines could ferment. Since yeast is killed at 140° according to the master baker at LeSaffre, the kosher wines that the Jews drank would not ferment as the yeast was killed off.
 

Steadfast Fred

Active Member
Have it your way.

Similiarly, there is no indication that "wine" ever means grape juice.

And there is no indication that anyone boiled their grape juice.

Yep, plain old wine is all the Bible talks about. Fermented and well refined.
There is more to show wine could mean grape juice than you want to admit.

Isaiah speaks of wine in the cluster. Proverbs speaks of wine in the press.
 
They boiled their wines before the wines could ferment. Since yeast is killed at 140° according to the master baker at LeSaffre, the kosher wines that the Jews drank would not ferment as the yeast was killed off.

WHERE IS YOUR BIBLE REFERENCE? You can not demand such a thing of me and then not follow your own advice. You use whatever it takes to suport your ideas. Can you not see how inconsistent you are?

The Jews drank REAL WINE. It is discussed IN DETAIL in the Talmud. There have been big arguments since the nineteenth century over whether or not juice could even be allowed at Pesach.

Anyway, you have yet to show a singe Bible reference for anything you have stated. They boiled down their wine.. CITE THE SCRIPTURE!!!!

They did not drink fermented wine... CITE THE SCRIPTURE!!!!

You can not, because you are basing your theories on the gnostic heresy that substances are evil unto themselves. This is completely contradictory to what Jesus said, "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man." (Matthew 15:11).

Perhaps you can come to Cali, and we can discuss this over a nice merlot.
 

Steadfast Fred

Active Member
His
WHERE IS YOUR BIBLE REFERENCE? You can not demand such a thing of me and then not follow your own advice. You use whatever it takes to suport your ideas. Can you not see how inconsistent you are?

The Jews drank REAL WINE. It is discussed IN DETAIL in the Talmud. There have been big arguments since the nineteenth century over whether or not juice could even be allowed at Pesach.

Anyway, you have yet to show a singe Bible reference for anything you have stated. They boiled down their wine.. CITE THE SCRIPTURE!!!!

They did not drink fermented wine... CITE THE SCRIPTURE!!!!

You can not, because you are basing your theories on the gnostic heresy that substances are evil unto themselves. This is completely contradictory to what Jesus said, "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man." (Matthew 15:11).

Perhaps you can come to Cali, and we can discuss this over a nice merlot.

History records that they boiled their wines.

Perhaps you can find a historical account of them calling grape juice honey?
 
There is more to show wine could mean grape juice than you want to admit.

Isaiah speaks of wine in the cluster. Proverbs speaks of wine in the press.

This is because it begins fermenting immediately. Wine is still called wine in the press, and it is still wine!

There really is no point in discussing this with people who refuse to see the plain truth of scripture.
 
His

History records that they boiled their wines.

Perhaps you can find a historical account of them calling grape juice honey?

It is still called dibs even today!!!

I cited the reference and explained the etymology. Perhaps you should actually do a word study.

Once again, where is the Bible reference that shows that anyone boiled their wine?

You have none.
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
....Once again, where is the Bible reference that shows that anyone boiled their wine?

You have none.

"....It is not known from whence the ancient Jewish authorities derived this claim; there are no records concerning "boiled wine" and its fitness for use in the cults of any of the religions of the peoples surrounding ancient Israel."
http://www.angelfire.com/pa2/passover/kosher-wine/

You are correct.
 

Steadfast Fred

Active Member
Plutarch, in the first century, wrote:
Wine at first is sweet; afterward, as it grows old, it ferments and begins to be pricked a little; then it gets a sweet taste.

Notice that even before fermentation, it was regarded as wine.

Nearly 600 years earlier, Isaiah wrote:

Isaiah 65:8 (KJV) Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

There is not only historical evidence that unfermented juice was regarded as wine, but also Scripture that attests to the fact that the unfermented juice of the grape was called wine.
 

HeirofSalvation

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Perhaps you can come to Cali, and we can discuss this over a nice merlot.

:eek::eek: You will NEVER win anyone over with Merlot!! Repent sir, of this as the truth of Scripture will be compromised...a nice Bordeaux..(oops Meritage in Cali)...or Possibly Cab Sauv....even a Spanish Tempranillo! But merlot? For shame. :laugh:
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
They boiled their wines before the wines could ferment. Since yeast is killed at 140° according to the master baker at LeSaffre, the kosher wines that the Jews drank would not ferment as the yeast was killed off.

If you read on down in the article the wine juice is fermented after being heated; and the heating/boiling/pastuerization process is strictly for RITUAL purposes.
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Fred, this has probably already been asked, but since the Jews of Bible times had no refrigeration or modern canning techniques, just how many days out of the year were they able to drink non-alcoholic grape juice? I assure you it wasn't many at all. Non-alcoholic or non-vinegar grape juice could not have been a year round commodity.
 
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Steadfast Fred

Active Member
Fred, this has probably already been asked, but since the Jews of Bible times had no refrigeration or modern canning techniques, just how many days out of the year were they able to drink non-alcoholic grape juice? I assure you it wasn't many at all. Non-alcoholic or non-vinegar grape juice could not have been a year round commodity.

I think someone gave a link to a site that gave several methods of preservation earlier in this thread, kyredneck.

Searching the internet on alcohol, I have found many references stated how wine was kept unfermented for a year or more at a time. Perhaps you could research that as well?
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I think someone gave a link to a site that gave several methods of preservation earlier in this thread, kyredneck.

I'm not going to look for it.

The question is, 'Is there evidence that the Jews did indeed employ these several methods of preservation of grape juice'? I personally think the notion that they did is SILLY. Their wine was no differerent than the Greeks or Romans or any other region, it was preserved through fermentation either into wine or vinegar. The huge fermentation pits unearthed in archeaological digs in Israel verifies this. Jews made wine, alcoholic wine just as was the norm everywhere else, and still is.
 
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Walter

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I'm not going to look for it.

The question is, 'Is there evidence that the Jews did indeed employ these several methods of preservation of grape juice'? I personally think the notion that they did is SILLY. Their wine was no differerent than the Greeks or Romans or any other region, it was preserved through fermentation either into wine or vinegar. The huge fermentation pits unearthed in archeaological digs in Israel verifies this. Jews made wine, alcoholic wine just as was the norm everywhere else, and still is.

Yes, the notion is silly, indeed! :applause:
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Genesis 40:10-13 And in the vine were three branches: and it was as though it budded, and her blossoms shot forth; and the clusters thereof brought forth ripe grapes: And Pharaoh's cup was in my hand: and I took the grapes, and pressed them into Pharaoh's cup, and I gave the cup into Pharaoh's hand. And Joseph said unto him, This is the interpretation of it: The three branches are three days: Yet within three days shall Pharaoh lift up thine head, and restore thee unto thy place: and thou shalt deliver Pharaoh's cup into his hand, after the former manner when thou wast his butler.
Vers. 9-11.And the chief butler told his dream to Joseph, and said to him, In my dream, behold, a vine was before me—literally, in my dream (sc. I was), and behold a vine (gephen, from the unused root gaphan, to be bent, a twig, hence a plant which has twigs, especially a vine; cf.1 before me. The introduction of the vine into the narrative, which has been pronounced (Bohlen) an important factor in proof of its recent composition, since, according to Herodotus (ii. 77), the vine was not cultivated in Egypt, and, according to Plutarch ('De Is. et Osir.,' 6), it was not till after Psammetichus, i.e. about the time of Josiah, that the Egyptians began to drink wine, has now by more accurate study been ascertained to be in exact accordance, not only with Biblical statements. [Nu 20:5; Ps 78:47; 105:33] but likewise with the testimony of Herodotus, who affirms (2:37) that wine (oinov ajmpelenov) was a privilege of the priestly order, and with the representations on the monuments of vines and grapes, and of the entire process of wine-making (vide Havernick's 'Introduction,' §21; Wilkinson's 'Ancient Egyptians,' 1:379, et seqq. 430, 431, ed. 1878; Hengstenberg, 'Egypt,' p. 13; Rawlinson, 'Hist. Illus.,' p. 49; Thornley Smith, 'Joseph and his Times,' p. 58). And in the vine were three branches: — sarigim, tendrils of a vine, from sarag, to intertwine;2and it was as though it budded, and her blossoms shot forth; — literally, as it budded (Murphy); or, as though blossoming (Rosenmüller, Keil, Kalisch); it shot forth its blossom (Keil); or, its blossoms shot forth (Rosenmüller, Kalisch, Murphy)—and the clusters thereof brought forth ripe grapes:—more correctly, its stems caused to ripen, or matured, clusters, the lKov]a, being the stalk of a cluster, as distinguished from the µybig or clusters themselves (Gesenius, 'Lex.,' p. 85), though interpreters generally (Kalisch, Keil, Murphy) regard the first as the unripe, and the second as the ripe, cluster—and Pharaoh's cupszOK, a receptacle or vessel, either contracted from Sg,ke, like vyai for vg,ae (Gesenius), or derived from aWK, to conceal, to receive, to keep, connected with the idea of bringing together, collecting into a thing (Furst)—was in my hand: and I took the grapes, and pressed them—ejxeqliya (LXX), expressi (Vulgate), a translation adopted by the most competent authorities (Gesenius, Furst, Rosenmüller, Keil, Kalisch, et alii), though the sense of diluting with water is advocated by Dathe, Havernick ('Introd.,' §21), and others as the most appropriate signification of fjv; which occurs only here. That Pharaoh is represented as drinking the expressed juice of grapes is no proof that the Egyptians were not acquainted with fermentation, and did not drink fermented liquors. In numerous frescoes the process of fermentation is distinctly represented, and Herodotus testifies that though the use of grape wine was comparatively limited, the common people drank a wine made from barley: oinw d ejk kriqewn pepoihmenw (2:77)—into Pharaoh's cup, and I gave the cup into Pharaoh's hand—literally, I placed the cup upon Pharaoh's palm, pK"", used of Jacob's thigh-socket, [Ge 32:26] meaning something hollowed out.
From the Pulpit Commentary.
 
:eek::eek: You will NEVER win anyone over with Merlot!! Repent sir, of this as the truth of Scripture will be compromised...a nice Bordeaux..(oops Meritage in Cali)...or Possibly Cab Sauv....even a Spanish Tempranillo! But merlot? For shame. :laugh:

I will repent of my transgression. Merlot was the first thing that came to mind. It was from twenty pounds of merlots that I did my first experiements with fermentation and came to the truth that the Bible speaks positively of fermentation. It happened so naturally and so easily that I knew the teetoallism nonsense was just that - nonsense.

However, the wine I have most recently used in the Lord's Supper is a Zinfandel. I will definitely offer a nice meritage from Arrow Creek, grown not too far from where I am a church planter. I hope that my repentant spirit compensates for my transgression.
 
The Question

The question that needs to be asked and answered is, “Does the Bible condone the use of alcohol as something that God has given to man for his benefit?” It is obvious that the Bible speaks of wine and that in an alcoholic way, but when the Bible uses the term wine does it always mean alcoholic wine?

The word wine in the Bible is the Hebrew word “yayin”. The advocates of fermented or intoxicating wine only, often state their position this way, “When the word is the same, the thing is the same; if, therefore, wine means intoxicating when applied to the case of Noah and Lot, it must have meant the same when used by David in the Psalm or when Jesus turned the water to wine in John chapter 2.”

In looking at this we need to view some counter-statements on this subject. Studious and learned men have made these quotes for our consideration. Dr. Ure says, “Juice when newly expressed, and before it has begun to ferment, is called must, and in common language New wine.” Chambers Cyclopedia states, “Sweet wine is that which has not yet worked or fermented.”

It is obvious that there are two kinds of wine referred to in the Bible. One is fermented and the other non-fermented. I refer you to the book “Bible Wines” for many more quotes on this fact. This fact can also be proved by the laws of fermentation as we will see. In the next lesson we will see that the laws of fermentation made the best wines to be unfermented and the hurtful wine to be fermented. This concludes lesson one. Make sure that you have answered all of the questions for your certificate of completion. May God bless you as you seek for the truth.

The Laws of Fermentation

The laws of fermentation are fixed facts, always operating in the same way, and requiring the same conditions everywhere. The facts are:

1. There must be sugar and yeast present.

2. The temperature should not be below 50 degrees or above 70 or 75 degrees.

3. The juice must be of a certain consistence. For example, too much sugar, too little sugar, too thick, too thin, too much water, too little water, etc.

4. The quantity of yeast must be well regulated.

When we look at these laws we understand that fermentation into alcohol is not a natural thing but is man-made. Dr. Pereira has said, “Grape juice does not ferment in the grapes itself,..” In Bible lands, the temperature is very hot during the time that grapes are harvested. Heat is an essential element in the production of large quantities of sugar. It is a well-established fact that in hot climates where the sugar content is high, the fermentation process cannot proceed on its’ own but the opposite will be a rotting of the fruit.

A Mohammedan traveler in A.D. 850 stated that “palm wine, if drunk fresh, is sweet like honey; but if kept it turns to vinegar.” Being the hot climate that it is, Palestine has the ability to produce tremendous crops of grapes. It has been stated that “in Palestine, even at the present day, the clusters of the vine grow to the weight of twelve pounds…” “Clusters weighing from twenty to forty pounds are still seen in various parts of Syria.” Because of the hot climate and the sweet grapes, chemical science prohibits the fermentation of its harvest.

There are at least four ways that fermentation can be prevented.

1. Grape juice will not ferment when the air is completely excluded.

2. By boiling down the juice it will not ferment.

3. If the juice is filtered to remove the yeast it will be impossible for it to ferment.

4. By lowering the temperature to 45 degrees.

Did the Ancients Preserve the Juices Sweet?

It is a well known fact that the ancient people used boiling as away to preserve their grape juice sweet. Please note that when juice is fermented it is no longer sweet because the sugar is totally used up in the fermentation process.

It is well known that boiling was used to preserve the grape juice.

Archbishop Potter states, “The Lacedaemonians used to boil their wines upon the fire till the fifth part was consumed…” Others have made similar comments to prove that boiling was a common way to preserve the wine (grape juice) from fermenting. When juice is made thick it can never be made into an alcoholic beverage. Aristotle said , “The wine of Arcadia was so thick that it was necessary to scrape it from the skin bottles in which it was contained..” We have already seen that grape juice called wine in the Bible when made too thick will not ferment. This in itself is proof that all references to wine in the scripture is not fermented wine but can also be grape juice in its’ sweet state.

(Excerpt from a four part study on Dr. William Patton's excellent book "Bible Wines: Or The Laws of Fermentation and Wines of the Ancients"--Lesson 1)

Bible Wines: Lesson 1
 

Moriah

New Member
The Question

The question that needs to be asked and answered is, “Does the Bible condone the use of alcohol as something that God has given to man for his benefit?” It is obvious that the Bible speaks of wine and that in an alcoholic way, but when the Bible uses the term wine does it always mean alcoholic wine?

Wine is wine. Wine is a fermented drink. It is an oxymoron statement to say fermented wine.



The word wine in the Bible is the Hebrew word “yayin”. The advocates of fermented or intoxicating wine only, often state their position this way, “When the word is the same, the thing is the same; if, therefore, wine means intoxicating when applied to the case of Noah and Lot, it must have meant the same when used by David in the Psalm or when Jesus turned the water to wine in John chapter 2.”

Yayin means “wine.” (1)This is the usual Hebrew word for fermented grape.
That is according to Strong’s.

In looking at this we need to view some counter-statements on this subject. Studious and learned men have made these quotes for our consideration. Dr. Ure says, “Juice when newly expressed, and before it has begun to ferment, is called must, and in common language New wine.”
New wine is just that, new wine. It is wine that is new. It is newly fermented grape.


Chambers Cyclopedia states, “Sweet wine is that which has not yet worked or fermented.”

Sweet Wine
Web definitions
o The sweetness of a wine is defined by the level of sugar in the wine.


It is obvious that there are two kinds of wine referred to in the Bible. One is fermented and the other non-fermented. I refer you to the book “Bible Wines” for many more quotes on this fact. This fact can also be proved by the laws of fermentation as we will see. In the next lesson we will see that the laws of fermentation made the best wines to be unfermented and the hurtful wine to be fermented. This concludes lesson one. Make sure that you have answered all of the questions for your certificate of completion. May God bless you as you seek for the truth.

To remove the alcohol content out of wine, would no longer qualify the wine as “wine.”




There are at least four ways that fermentation can be prevented.

1. Grape juice will not ferment when the air is completely excluded.

It is not called wine, but remains grape juice and is called “grape juice.”


2. By boiling down the juice it will not ferment.


If the juice is not fermented, it is still juice.



3. If the juice is filtered to remove the yeast it will be impossible for it to ferment.


Then it will still be a juice and not a wine.



4. By lowering the temperature to 45 degrees.

Will it not still be juice?





It is a well known fact that the ancient people used boiling as away to preserve their grape juice sweet. Please note that when juice is fermented it is no longer sweet because the sugar is totally used up in the fermentation process.

Have you not ever heard of sweet wine?


It is well known that boiling was used to preserve the grape juice.

Again, then it is grape juice and not wine. You call it grape juice here yourself
 
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