Free Will and Loss of Salvation

[Reformed1689]

The OP is really quite pointless, and it actually "proves" nothing!

As the OP, I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm asking a question, making an inquiry, trying to understand a position. To me, the position seems illogical and opposed to itself. So if you have something to add that is on topic, great, if not, please get out of this thread.

 

[atpollard]

everything that we say, is really only our "opinions", as all we can do is comment on what the Bible says. Like John 3:16-18, some, who take the Bible at face value, and for what it exactly says, will say that God loves the entire human race, and those out of this race, who believe in Jesus Christ, will be saved; and those who don't believe, will be damned to eternal punishment. Then we have those, who for theological gain, will force its plain meaning, to say that the world here means only "the elect", which then leaves us with the absurdity, that some of this "world/elect", will not believe, and be damned! TULI of TULIP is rendered UNBIBLICAL from these three verses. I am yet to see anynone who is honest in their interpretation, use this for their "Calvinism/Reformed" theology. Only those who wrest with the Word of God, will do so!

[Ephesians 2:1-3 NASB20] 1 And you were dead in your offenses and sins, 2 in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.

Just focusing on the underlined part, was that "some" or "all" that were once "children of wrath"?
You just told me that no honest Calvinist could explain your clear verses refuting TULI, well my clear verse irrefutably affirms (T) ... all men were once dead in their sins, "But God"...

How can scripture irrefutably affirm and refute (T) at the same time?

It is Romans 3:10 all over again (and John 3:19-20).

Since you mention John 3, here is my take:

The Paragraph:

[NASB95] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."​

Line by line:
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

• God loves "the world" ... at a minimum, it means that God's love extends beyond The Chosen Nation (Israel) which would have been both a shock and the understanding of the Jews that were the original audience. This is affirmed by prophetic statements in the OT foreshadowing the event ("all nations will be blessed..."). This is further affirmed by the unfolding history in the book of Acts.
• God loves "the world" (part 2) ... it is affirmed by many that the world means all people without exception. Verses like "makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." support this view. How does God love sinners and how does God love His children? Is His love the same or different? ... SORRY, Questions way above my pay grade. I avoid telling God how to be God. So the FIRST observation is definite (scripture proved it) and the SECOND observation is possible (scripture makes it a possibility). Therefore I AFFIRM the first as true and accept the second as possible (but not certain since there are other verses that imply without explicitly stating a contrary view).
• "whoever believes in Him shall not perish" ... refutes Universalism and declares that even if ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION are loved, all without exception are not being saved by the Son. Only "whoever believes". From elsewhere, we KNOW that belief is a gift from God.
• "whoever" ... opens Salvation to ANYONE without restriction. May or may not open salvation to anyone without exception. It is equally important to affirm what is said (exegesis) without claiming things that are not said (eisegesis).

17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

• Stated purpose for the Incarnation and mission of Christ. I know of no person that argues with the purpose.
• "world" ... everything already stated still applies. All without restriction (nobody is beyond the reach of God to save) but not all without exception (Universal Salvation is refuted by other verses).

18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

• The binary reality ... saved or lost ... no partially saved.
• Belief as the cornerstone of salvation (not judged).

19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

• "men loved the darkness" ... "for their deeds were evil": it does not say "some men", so the implication is "all men" and "mankind". Shades of Romans 3 all over it and an affirmation of men born as slaves to sin - the Adamic Curse and "Total Depravity".

20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

• Who does "evil"? Who sins? ... everyone except Christ. So what does this say about EVERYONE! Shades of John 6:44 all over it. Shades of John 10:26 all over it. Shades of Genesis 3:8 all over it.

21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

• "he who practices the truth comes to the Light" ... so the question then is: Who practices truth?
• "having been wrought in God" ... the verse contains the answer within itself. Not the men who loved the darkness, but the men of Ephesians 2:8-10 ... those whose deeds were wrought IN GOD. (as in "created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." - Ephesians 2:10 or " for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." - Philippians 2:13).

So I have a little personal trouble drawing an irrefutable "Limited Atonement" from John 3, but I have equal dificulty seeing any sort of universal "free will" synergism that denies:

• Total Depravity
• Unconditional Election
• Irresistible Grace
• Perseverance of Saints

in John 3. What in John 3 makes anyone think ...

• all people are pretty good
• God chooses based on human merit
• We choose God, God does not draw men
• Our continued salvation is based on our ability to hold onto God and be good enough

completely eludes me. The appearance of the words "world" and "love" do not carry enough weight in context to overturn all of scripture to fit the synergystic human-centric narrative.

 

[SavedByGrace]

[Ephesians 2:1-3 NASB20] 1 And you were dead in your offenses and sins, 2 in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.

Just focusing on the underlined part, was that "some" or "all" that were once "children of wrath"?
You just told me that no honest Calvinist could explain your clear verses refuting TULI, well my clear verse irrefutably affirms (T) ... all men were once dead in their sins, "But God"...

How can scripture irrefutably affirm and refute (T) at the same time?

It is Romans 3:10 all over again (and John 3:19-20).

Since you mention John 3, here is my take:

The Paragraph:

[NASB95] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."​

Line by line:
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

• God loves "the world" ... at a minimum, it means that God's love extends beyond The Chosen Nation (Israel) which would have been both a shock and the understanding of the Jews that were the original audience. This is affirmed by prophetic statements in the OT foreshadowing the event ("all nations will be blessed..."). This is further affirmed by the unfolding history in the book of Acts.
• God loves "the world" (part 2) ... it is affirmed by many that the world means all people without exception. Verses like "makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." support this view. How does God love sinners and how does God love His children? Is His love the same or different? ... SORRY, Questions way above my pay grade. I avoid telling God how to be God. So the FIRST observation is definite (scripture proved it) and the SECOND observation is possible (scripture makes it a possibility). Therefore I AFFIRM the first as true and accept the second as possible (but not certain since there are other verses that imply without explicitly stating a contrary view).
• "whoever believes in Him shall not perish" ... refutes Universalism and declares that even if ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION are loved, all without exception are not being saved by the Son. Only "whoever believes". From elsewhere, we KNOW that belief is a gift from God.
• "whoever" ... opens Salvation to ANYONE without restriction. May or may not open salvation to anyone without exception. It is equally important to affirm what is said (exegesis) without claiming things that are not said (eisegesis).

17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

• Stated purpose for the Incarnation and mission of Christ. I know of no person that argues with the purpose.
• "world" ... everything already stated still applies. All without restriction (nobody is beyond the reach of God to save) but not all without exception (Universal Salvation is refuted by other verses).

18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

• The binary reality ... saved or lost ... no partially saved.
• Belief as the cornerstone of salvation (not judged).

19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

• "men loved the darkness" ... "for their deeds were evil": it does not say "some men", so the implication is "all men" and "mankind". Shades of Romans 3 all over it and an affirmation of men born as slaves to sin - the Adamic Curse and "Total Depravity".

20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

• Who does "evil"? Who sins? ... everyone except Christ. So what does this say about EVERYONE! Shades of John 6:44 all over it. Shades of John 10:26 all over it. Shades of Genesis 3:8 all over it.

21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

• "he who practices the truth comes to the Light" ... so the question then is: Who practices truth?
• "having been wrought in God" ... the verse contains the answer within itself. Not the men who loved the darkness, but the men of Ephesians 2:8-10 ... those whose deeds were wrought IN GOD. (as in "created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." - Ephesians 2:10 or " for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." - Philippians 2:13).

So I have a little personal trouble drawing an irrefutable "Limited Atonement" from John 3, but I have equal dificulty seeing any sort of universal "free will" synergism that denies:

• Total Depravity
• Unconditional Election
• Irresistible Grace
• Perseverance of Saints

in John 3. What in John 3 makes anyone think ...

• all people are pretty good
• God chooses based on human merit
• We choose God, God does not draw men
• Our continued salvation is based on our ability to hold onto God and be good enough

completely eludes me. The appearance of the words "world" and "love" do not carry enough weight in context to overturn all of scripture to fit the synergystic human-centric narrative.

yeah, what you have given here is "theology", which is so far removed from what the passage in John 3 actually says! Even the "father" of "Calvinism", John Calvin, disagrees with what you say here. Here is he on John 3:16, and some other passages

“That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.

on John 1:29;

“Who taketh away the sin of the world. He uses the word sin in the singular number, for any kind of iniquity; as if he had said, that every kind of unrighteousness which alienates men from God is taken away by Christ. And when he says, the sin Of The World, he extends this favor indiscriminately to the whole human race; that the Jews might not think that he had been sent to them alone. But hence we infer that the whole world is involved in the same condemnation; and that as all men without exception are guilty of unrighteousness before God, they need to be reconciled to him. John the Baptist, therefore, by speaking generally of the sin of the world, intended to impress upon us the conviction of our own misery, and to exhort us to seek the remedy. Now our duty is, to embrace the benefit which is offered to all, that each of us may be convinced that there is nothing to hinder him from obtaining reconciliation in Christ, provided that he comes to him by the guidance of faith.”

Romans 5:18;

“He makes this favor common to all, because it is propounded to all, and not because it is in reality extended to all; for though Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and is offered through God's benignity indiscriminately to all, yet all do not receive him”

Mark 14:24;

“Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race”

etc, etc

Now, Calvin is appealed to by almost all who hold to TULIP or/and the Five Points of Calvinism, and yet his own words show that he did not accept the L!

 

[CalTech]

An interesting observation.

As you might recall, I am one of those oddities that takes the Scripture factually unless it is indicated in the text that it is using some allegorical presentation. I have also close ties with the Calvinistic thinking.

However, as far as Calvinistic thinking on the eternal security, that is for another thread.

This one concerns those who hold to both freedom of the will concerning salvation based on terms of human determination in acceptance or rejection, and how then that same group may claim they cannot loose the salvation by the same act of the freedom of their own will.

I seems logically unbalanced to present "once saved always saved" when it is the freedom of the human that accepts salvation yet rejects that that same freedom of the human cannot reject salvation at a later date.

At least those of the Church of God are consistent in holding that humans can loose their salvation.

Yes, that is typical of a systematic, well organized corporate Pentecostal, belief system. Was involved with it for a few years, until the Lord told me to come out, along with the Charismatic belief system........all built upon shifting sands.

 

[Reynolds]

Responding to a stupid comment

With a response that in no way refuted what I said.
You can not logically reconcile Arminian free will to Eternal Security. The Scripture regarding eternal security is not clear enough to build a case for eternal security without drawing on, and making concessions to, at least two other points of Calvinism.

 

[CalTech]

[Ephesians 2:1-3 NASB20] 1 And you were dead in your offenses and sins, 2 in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.

Just focusing on the underlined part, was that "some" or "all" that were once "children of wrath"?
You just told me that no honest Calvinist could explain your clear verses refuting TULI, well my clear verse irrefutably affirms (T) ... all men were once dead in their sins, "But God"...

How can scripture irrefutably affirm and refute (T) at the same time?

It is Romans 3:10 all over again (and John 3:19-20).

Since you mention John 3, here is my take:

The Paragraph:

[NASB95] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."​

Line by line:
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

• God loves "the world" ... at a minimum, it means that God's love extends beyond The Chosen Nation (Israel) which would have been both a shock and the understanding of the Jews that were the original audience. This is affirmed by prophetic statements in the OT foreshadowing the event ("all nations will be blessed..."). This is further affirmed by the unfolding history in the book of Acts.
• God loves "the world" (part 2) ... it is affirmed by many that the world means all people without exception. Verses like "makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." support this view. How does God love sinners and how does God love His children? Is His love the same or different? ... SORRY, Questions way above my pay grade. I avoid telling God how to be God. So the FIRST observation is definite (scripture proved it) and the SECOND observation is possible (scripture makes it a possibility). Therefore I AFFIRM the first as true and accept the second as possible (but not certain since there are other verses that imply without explicitly stating a contrary view).
• "whoever believes in Him shall not perish" ... refutes Universalism and declares that even if ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION are loved, all without exception are not being saved by the Son. Only "whoever believes". From elsewhere, we KNOW that belief is a gift from God.
• "whoever" ... opens Salvation to ANYONE without restriction. May or may not open salvation to anyone without exception. It is equally important to affirm what is said (exegesis) without claiming things that are not said (eisegesis).

17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

• Stated purpose for the Incarnation and mission of Christ. I know of no person that argues with the purpose.
• "world" ... everything already stated still applies. All without restriction (nobody is beyond the reach of God to save) but not all without exception (Universal Salvation is refuted by other verses).

18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

• The binary reality ... saved or lost ... no partially saved.
• Belief as the cornerstone of salvation (not judged).

19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

• "men loved the darkness" ... "for their deeds were evil": it does not say "some men", so the implication is "all men" and "mankind". Shades of Romans 3 all over it and an affirmation of men born as slaves to sin - the Adamic Curse and "Total Depravity".

20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

• Who does "evil"? Who sins? ... everyone except Christ. So what does this say about EVERYONE! Shades of John 6:44 all over it. Shades of John 10:26 all over it. Shades of Genesis 3:8 all over it.

21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

• "he who practices the truth comes to the Light" ... so the question then is: Who practices truth?
• "having been wrought in God" ... the verse contains the answer within itself. Not the men who loved the darkness, but the men of Ephesians 2:8-10 ... those whose deeds were wrought IN GOD. (as in "created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." - Ephesians 2:10 or " for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." - Philippians 2:13).

So I have a little personal trouble drawing an irrefutable "Limited Atonement" from John 3, but I have equal dificulty seeing any sort of universal "free will" synergism that denies:

• Total Depravity
• Unconditional Election
• Irresistible Grace
• Perseverance of Saints

in John 3. What in John 3 makes anyone think ...

• all people are pretty good
• God chooses based on human merit
• We choose God, God does not draw men
• Our continued salvation is based on our ability to hold onto God and be good enough

completely eludes me. The appearance of the words "world" and "love" do not carry enough weight in context to overturn all of scripture to fit the synergystic human-centric narrative.

Greetings,
Well you certainly find utilizing all of these big words like Synergystic, human-centric narrative, shades of John, etc, etc.....as something honorable?
It's nothing but human theological terminology, probably garnered from some book which you picked this up from, or you went to a Theological Bible University, College, or a Seminary....have you earned some type of Divinity Master's degree, or some useless Theological degree to prove you know the Lord's Word? Well according to the Lord it's all Wood, hay, and stubble, to be burnt.....it is all useless......the Lord does not reveal His Word to the wise, but to those who are lowly and meek of mind and spirit.
All the Bible institutions, Universities, College's, so-called Christian Organizations, are not built, nor ever sanctioned by the Lord Jesus Christ. It's all been built following after the RCC method of conducting church. Build your big buildings, business expenses, salaries, housing for the Pastor's, students paying 1000's of dollars to achieve a diploma in the "Christian" career of their choosing. Christian schools, which the Parent's believe is the Christian thing to do, well they have been falsely deceived in believing this was all sanctioned by the Lord Jesus Christ and His Apostles, it is not. What the parents are actually doing is giving up their God given authority over their children, by entrusting them to "educated" teacher's. In the Lord's eyes and according to Paul, they disobey the Lord's will, because the parents are the ones who are too teach their children....Period.

All of these institution's, organizations, conferences do not walk in the ways of the Lord, the selling of Merchandise, books, t-shirts, bracelet's, hoodies, coffee mugs......it is the same old story that Jesus had to contend with........as Paul put it quite bluntly....making merchandise of the people. How many millions have "pastor's/teacher's made by writing scores of books to teach people how to have a closer walk with the Lord. While the Lord's Word says "what is freely given, we are to freely give away, without charge.

How many Theological Universities and College's are members of the ATS, which receive large grants from various groups such as The Bill Gates Foundation, the Ford Foundation, the Lilly Foundation, the Rockefeller's Foundation, just to mention a few. These are ALL One World Organization's, supporting the One World Church Organization's.......How many so-called "Christian" music companies have been paid for and supported by the Masonic Illuminati's dirty money.....such as Chuck Smith the founder of the Anti-Christ "Calvary Chapel" organization. He was given million's to begin the "Marantha" music Company.......just to mention one.

I will leave it off here, I think there is plenty to digest.
So your big "theological terminology" does not impress me...why because the Lord's Word given by the Unction of the Holy Spirit meets person's where they are in their faith walk, and guides them according to His Will and His timing for their individual lives. The Gospel is simple, the Holy Spirit is the teacher, for we need NO man to teach us, especially when there are so very little of true God Chosen pastor's and teacher's out there.

The Lord bless you......

 

[SavedByGrace]

With a response that in no way refuted what I said.
You can not logically reconcile Arminian free will to Eternal Security. The Scripture regarding eternal security is not clear enough to build a case for eternal security without drawing on, and making concessions to, at least two other points of Calvinism.

You guys don't even know what you are really talking about!

FREE WILL is the GOD-GIVEN ability to CHOOSE. Joshua 24:15, for example, is very clear on FREE WILL

And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE for yourselves this day whom you will SERVE, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

These people were given a clear CHOICE, between the One True Lord God of the Holy Bible, and the false so called "gods" of this world. It would have been completely pointless, if they could not CHOOSE! Note it says, "CHOOSE TO YOU", which is literally, "CHOSE FOR YOURELVES". Their CHOICE is clearly an eternal matter.

 

[AustinC]

You guys don't even know what you are really talking about!

FREE WILL is the GOD-GIVEN ability to CHOOSE. Joshua 24:15, for example, is very clear on FREE WILL

And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE for yourselves this day whom you will SERVE, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

These people were given a clear CHOICE, between the One True Lord God of the Holy Bible, and the false so called "gods" of this world. It would have been completely pointless, if they could not CHOOSE! Note it says, "CHOOSE TO YOU", which is literally, "CHOSE FOR YOURELVES". Their CHOICE is clearly an eternal matter.

LOL, coming from the guy who doesnt even know what is happening in Joshua 24 and he thinks that it is teaching humans have free will.
Eisegesis is your companion, sbw.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Another log just added to my burn pile...

 

[Silverhair]

DOES THIS TAKE AWAY MANS FRE CHOICE WHEN HE IS SAVED?

Short answer NO.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

The verb believe πιστεύω G4100 occurs 98 times in John. One of the unsolved mysteries is why the corresponding noun form πίστις G4102 (pistis) is never used at all. It might be that for John, faith was an activity, something that men do.

Lets be clear about what John is saying. God did not give people “the right to become children of God” so that they can receive and believe. God gives them that right because they receive and believe.

Becoming a regenerated child of God does not create faith so that we can believe—it is God’s sovereign response to faith because we believe.

 

[Silverhair]

Out of context verses mean nothing.

Then why do you use them?

 

[Silverhair]

Van, the OP is talking about those who believe in both eternal security and absolute free will. If you believe in both, how can those two both coexist? That is the question. Nothing else.

Why do you keep with red herring of "absolute free will". You seem to be fixated on that term. Man has a God given free will, no created being has an "absolute free will".

God gave man a free will so they could make real choices in regard to his salvation but for the calvinist that is impossible because God has determined that man can have a free will in just about anything but that. The most important choice a man could make and God says no you can't I have to do it for you. Such is calvinism, the refuge of those that will not take responsibility for themselves.

 

[SavedByGrace]

The verb believe πιστεύω G4100 occurs 98 times in John. One of the unsolved mysteries is why the corresponding noun form πίστις G4102 (pistis) is never used at all. It might be that for John, faith was an activity, something that men do.

now you sound like Van!

Why is it an "unsolved mystery" that John does not use "πίστις"? John does not use "μετανοέω" either!

 

[Reformed1689]

Greetings,
Well you certainly find utilizing all of these big words like Synergystic, human-centric narrative, shades of John, etc, etc.....as something honorable?
It's nothing but human theological terminology, probably garnered from some book which you picked this up from, or you went to a Theological Bible University, College, or a Seminary....have you earned some type of Divinity Master's degree, or some useless Theological degree to prove you know the Lord's Word? Well according to the Lord it's all Wood, hay, and stubble, to be burnt.....it is all useless......the Lord does not reveal His Word to the wise, but to those who are lowly and meek of mind and spirit.
All the Bible institutions, Universities, College's, so-called Christian Organizations, are not built, nor ever sanctioned by the Lord Jesus Christ. It's all been built following after the RCC method of conducting church. Build your big buildings, business expenses, salaries, housing for the Pastor's, students paying 1000's of dollars to achieve a diploma in the "Christian" career of their choosing. Christian schools, which the Parent's believe is the Christian thing to do, well they have been falsely deceived in believing this was all sanctioned by the Lord Jesus Christ and His Apostles, it is not. What the parents are actually doing is giving up their God given authority over their children, by entrusting them to "educated" teacher's. In the Lord's eyes and according to Paul, they disobey the Lord's will, because the parents are the ones who are too teach their children....Period.

All of these institution's, organizations, conferences do not walk in the ways of the Lord, the selling of Merchandise, books, t-shirts, bracelet's, hoodies, coffee mugs......it is the same old story that Jesus had to contend with........as Paul put it quite bluntly....making merchandise of the people. How many millions have "pastor's/teacher's made by writing scores of books to teach people how to have a closer walk with the Lord. While the Lord's Word says "what is freely given, we are to freely give away, without charge.

How many Theological Universities and College's are members of the ATS, which receive large grants from various groups such as The Bill Gates Foundation, the Ford Foundation, the Lilly Foundation, the Rockefeller's Foundation, just to mention a few. These are ALL One World Organization's, supporting the One World Church Organization's.......How many so-called "Christian" music companies have been paid for and supported by the Masonic Illuminati's dirty money.....such as Chuck Smith the founder of the Anti-Christ "Calvary Chapel" organization. He was given million's to begin the "Marantha" music Company.......just to mention one.

I will leave it off here, I think there is plenty to digest.
So your big "theological terminology" does not impress me...why because the Lord's Word given by the Unction of the Holy Spirit meets person's where they are in their faith walk, and guides them according to His Will and His timing for their individual lives. The Gospel is simple, the Holy Spirit is the teacher, for we need NO man to teach us, especially when there are so very little of true God Chosen pastor's and teacher's out there.

The Lord bless you......

 

[Reformed1689]

Why do you keep with red herring of "absolute free will". You seem to be fixated on that term. Man has a God given free will, no created being has an "absolute free will".

God gave man a free will so they could make real choices in regard to his salvation but for the calvinist that is impossible because God has determined that man can have a free will in just about anything but that. The most important choice a man could make and God says no you can't I have to do it for you. Such is calvinism, the refuge of those that will not take responsibility for themselves.

It's not a red herring. It is exactly what some here have described. That we can choose anything without exception. That is absolute free will. Yes, man can make real choices, we agree. But that's not the question is it? The question is what will man choose? Man will choose what he DESIRES. And for unregenerate man, Paul tells us nobody seeks God. I know you want to ignore that verse with your Midrash nonsense, but that doesn't change the fact that Paul was INSPIRED to right that. Surely you do not deny the inspiration of the Word do you?

You make a caricature when you say we believe that God says "No you can't." That is not what I believe. It is "No you won't." There is a difference there. Man's inability is not because of God, it is because of His sin. HUMAN RESPONSIBILITY. We are enslaved to our sin and we are happy to be enslaved to it. That is the point. That is what Scripture states. SLAVES are not free.

37.3 δοῦλος, η, ον: pertaining to a state of being completely controlled by someone or something—‘subservient to, controlled by.’ ὥσπερ γὰρ παρεστήσατε τὰ μέλη ὑμῶν δοῦλα τῇ ἀκαθαρσίᾳ καὶ τῇ ἀνομίᾳ εἰς τὴν ἀνομίαν ‘for as you presented parts of your body to be subservient to impurity and wickedness for wicked purposes’ Ro 6:19. In some languages it may be useful to render δοῦλος in the context of Ro 6:19 as a simile, ‘like slaves,’ for example, ‘for as you surrendered the parts of your body to be like slaves to obey impurity and wickedness’ or ‘… to be ordered about by impurity and wickedness.’
Johannes P. Louw and Eugene Albert Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains (New York: United Bible Societies, 1996), 471.

So this idea of free will, is humanistic. We, in our sin, are not free. Scripture is explicit about that. Why do you choose to ignore that?

 

[37818]

God is not a finite being.

 

[Reformed1689]

God is not a finite being.

What exactly does this have to do with the topic??

 

[Van]

Van, the OP is talking about those who believe in both eternal security and absolute free will. If you believe in both, how can those two both coexist? That is the question. Nothing else.

Note how liberals like to dictate to others what they should think, what words to use, and how to be a good little slave.

 

[atpollard]

Even the "father" of "Calvinism", John Calvin, disagrees with what you say here.

Statements like this win arguments through skillful sophistry, but utterly destroy your credibility as seeking honest discussion. You now force me to wonder if your earlier question was equally dishonest.

Just for the record, John Calvin is not the father of Calvinism. There were Reformed Theologians writing before Calvin was born. He was one voice among many taking up the battle cry "Sola Scriptura" ...

So when ...

• you call for exegesis of Scripture
  
• and I respond with exegesis of scripture,
  
• and you dismiss the requested exegesis as "theology"
  
• and you refute it with quotes from men in an "Appeal to Authority" fallacy

... disappointed only begins to scratch the surface of my reaction.

I shake off the dust of this conversation with you.
Your questions are not sincere and your responses are not honest.

(PS. If you are dishonest with your English, how can I trust your Greek?)

 

[Reformed1689]

Note how liberals like to dictate to others what they should think, what words to use, and how to be a good little slave.

Van I am HARDLY a liberal!