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Loss of salvation---the Extent

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George Antonios

Well-Known Member
That is an interesting point you make concerning the 'tree of life' and those who are not part of the Church. I have never thought about it but it makes sense. Because in (Rev. 22:2) we are into eternity.
There is a very good case to be made that Revelation 21-22 are the millennium. Yes, there are problems with that view, but also with the view that Revelation 21-22 are in eternity. Nevertheless, the point remains valid, in either dispensation, that non-church saved peoples will need the tree of life.

I know the angels are elect just as man is. (1 Tim. 5:21) But just as with man, only God knows who they are.
There is no such thing as pre-elect men unto salvation.
Election happens in time, once we get in him (Eph.1:4) which is when we believe on him in time (Eph.1:13).
The before the foundation of the world part (Eph.1:4) is simply his foreknowledge (1Pe.1:2) of who would believe on Christ and thus get in him (Eph.1:4).
 

Sai

Well-Known Member
And yet, if 'sons of God' are angels also, in (Gen. 6), it speaks to another group of angels who made a decision after satan's rebellion.

Quantrill

There are three categories of angels.


Joy unspeakable full of glory
 

Quantrill

Active Member
Without you giving context of your argument, . ..I fail to hear any truth to this opening argument.

Interesting. You pick part of what I said, ignoring the rest and yet cry about context. Try reading the whole thing. It should become clearer.

Quantrill
 

Quantrill

Active Member
There is a very good case to be made that Revelation 21-22 are the millennium. Yes, there are problems with that view, but also with the view that Revelation 21-22 are in eternity. Nevertheless, the point remains valid, in either dispensation, that non-church saved peoples will need the tree of life.


There is no such thing as pre-elect men unto salvation.
Election happens in time, once we get in him (Eph.1:4) which is when we believe on him in time (Eph.1:13).
The before the foundation of the world part (Eph.1:4) is simply his foreknowledge (1Pe.1:2) of who would believe on Christ and thus get in him (Eph.1:4).

I disagree concerning the elect. Of course our experience begins in time. But that we were elect before the foundation of the world by God is clearly stated in (Eph. 1:4). Your use of 'foreknowledge' is in my opinion incorrect here. You are making it appear that God looked ahead and saw who would be saved and thus they are the elect. That is not God's way at all. Things go as God wants them to go. (Acts 15:18) God doesn't react to things.

Quantrill
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
There is no such thing as pre-elect men unto salvation.
Election happens in time, once we get in him
(Eph.1:4) which is when we believe on him in time (Eph.1:13).
The before the foundation of the world part (Eph.1:4) is simply his foreknowledge (1Pe.1:2) of who would believe on Christ and thus get in him (Eph.1:4).
I have bolded your statement, which makes no sense.
What you have done is an attempt to castrate election entirely.
Basically, you say that election doesn't exist until after a person chooses God, then that causes God to elect the person who chose to be saved.

That is nonsensical.
 

Quantrill

Active Member
Your question begs this question:
Who secured salvation in the first place; was it man, by his own merit, or was it God, by grace alone?

My answer is found here:

John 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

My questions beg an answer. Which I didn't get.

Quantrill
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
My questions beg an answer. Which I didn't get.

Quantrill
You actually did get an answer from John 10. Jesus is quite clear.
I will even bold the words so you don't miss them.

John 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
 

Sai

Well-Known Member
Well, ok. So? You ignored the point of my statement.

Quantrill

The sons of god fell when Satan did. But they are reserved in Tartarus never to be let out until they are cast into the lake of fire.
What’s so difficult to understand?


Joy unspeakable full of glory
 

Sai

Well-Known Member
To those who hold in any way this form of doctrine, I have a question. And, even to those who don't hold to this doctrine, it is still a question to consider.

What is the extent or range that this doctrine reaches? In other words, after you die and are with the Lord in Heaven, is this threat still there?

At first this will sound ludicrous, but consider. lucifer was present with God in heaven when he sinned against God. Adam and Eve were present with God in a pristine environment, free from sin. Yet, they sinned against God.

If one believes you can lose your salvation here and now, why can't you lose it there and then?

What difference is there to insure that no believer will do the same in Heaven as lucifer or Adam and Eve?

Quantrill

You already ignored the answer. Adam like the angels was created in a state of unconfirmed holiness with the ability to choose contrary to his nature. The angels that sinned have been confirmed in unrighteousness and are without hope.
The angels that did not sin have been confirmed in righteousness and cannot sin.
Believers will receive glorified bodies at the resurrection and will not have the capacity to make a unholy choice.

What a weak mess. End of thread


Joy unspeakable full of glory
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
And that's how the game is rigged folks - always ignoring that pesky in him in Ephesians 1:4.
What's pesky about it?

Ephesians 1:3-14
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
 

Alcott

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
To those who hold in any way this form of doctrine, I have a question. And, even to those who don't hold to this doctrine, it is still a question to consider.

What is the extent or range that this doctrine reaches? In other words, after you die and are with the Lord in Heaven, is this threat still there?

At first this will sound ludicrous, but consider. lucifer was present with God in heaven when he sinned against God. Adam and Eve were present with God in a pristine environment, free from sin. Yet, they sinned against God.

If one believes you can lose your salvation here and now, why can't you lose it there and then?

What difference is there to insure that no believer will do the same in Heaven as lucifer or Adam and Eve?

I don't know for sure. But there's no question about one thing ... If you can't lose your salvation by an means, then you can't lose it by believing you can lose it. There are a lot of warnings which seem to be addressed to Christians; such as Romans 8:12-13, which say one may still choose sin and death. So "eternal security" is not a doctrine of which I am completely convinced.

As a math/statistics major, it has long bothered me that terms such as eternal, absolute, ever and never come into play on any person's fate. As many would know, Euclidean geometry plays a major part in mathematical education. But there is non-Euclidean geometry, based on one of Euclid's axioms. He said that, regarding a line in a plane and a point in that plane not in such a line, only one line parallel to the given line exists. But recalling that point, line, and plane are left undefined, there exist 2 other possibilities. One is that NO line can exist which is parallel to the given line, as all lines meet somewhere, given millionths, billionths, trillionths, and so on, of any measurement. The other possibility is that infinitely many lines exist which are parallel to the given line, as infinity is infinitely small (and never smallest). So, can we go to infinity of life never sinning? We already know that Satan and his followers sinned-- turned against God-- so we cannot deny that sin is possible even in the realm in which God is known and seen. So then it would appear that, unless we are literally some form of puppets which don't choose anything, that it is possible.

Having said all that, I will reduce it here to an ultra-elementary level .... Have you ever heard a silly song that starts, "Found a peanut..."?
 

Quantrill

Active Member
The sons of god fell when Satan did. But they are reserved in Tartarus never to be let out until they are cast into the lake of fire.
What’s so difficult to understand?


Joy unspeakable full of glory

You are assuming the term 'sons of God' refer only to fallen angels. In the Old Testament it speaks to all angels. Correct?

Quantrill
 

Quantrill

Active Member
You already ignored the answer. Adam like the angels was created in a state of unconfirmed holiness with the ability to choose contrary to his nature. The angels that sinned have been confirmed in unrighteousness and are without hope.
The angels that did not sin have been confirmed in righteousness and cannot sin.
Believers will receive glorified bodies at the resurrection and will not have the capacity to make a unholy choice.

What a weak mess. End of thread


Joy unspeakable full of glory

This 'confirmed' and 'unconfirmed' holiness is an assumption. I see nothing to indicate angels are partakers of righteousness.

Quantrill
 
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