Was Judas Born-Again and Then Lost?

[canadyjd]

Note the words "who have followed me", in the past tense. Not the future, "who shall follow me"

As I said language is very important

Jesus was speaking from the point of view of the future. When the kingdom is established (in the future) you who followed Me (in the past) will set on the thrones.

Judas didn’t follow in the past from the point of view of the establishment of the kingdom, he betrayed Jesus instead.

To answer your question directly, Judas didn’t lose his salvation, he was never saved. None of the disciples were “saved” when Jesus made the statement.

The mark, or seal, of salvation is indwelling Holy Spirit. The disciples do not receive indwelling Holy Spirit until after the resurrection. John 20:19 or so. Judas was already dead at that point.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

Will Judas be raised from the dead?

Yes.

 

[Marooncat79]

John says that “he was a devil from the beginning”


John 8::44
John 6:70

 

[SavedByGrace]

Jesus was speaking from the point of view of the future. When the kingdom is established (in the future) you who followed Me (in the past) will set on the thrones.

Judas didn’t follow in the past from the point of view of the establishment of the kingdom, he betrayed Jesus instead.

To answer your question directly, Judas didn’t lose his salvation, he was never saved. None of the disciples were “saved” when Jesus made the statement.

The mark, or seal, of salvation is indwelling Holy Spirit. The disciples do not receive indwelling Holy Spirit until after the resurrection. John 20:19 or so. Judas was already dead at that point.

peace to you

sure, but what I said in the OP, I repeat

The timing is very important. Had Jesus not wanted to include Judas in what He said, then He could have said what He does in Matthew 19, and Luke 22, after Judas had left the room to betray Him. However, as the facts stand, Jesus made sure that Judas was present for both events.

Jesus spoke to the TWELVE, not ELEVEN as some assume!

 

[SavedByGrace]

John says that “he was a devil from the beginning”


John 8::44
John 6:70

the Greek is διάβολος, false accuser

 

[canadyjd]

sure, but what I said in the OP, I repeat

The timing is very important. Had Jesus not wanted to include Judas in what He said, then He could have said what He does in Matthew 19, and Luke 22, after Judas had left the room to betray Him. However, as the facts stand, Jesus made sure that Judas was present for both events.

Jesus spoke to the TWELVE, not ELEVEN as some assume!

In Matthew 19, Jesus is answering Peter’s question. Peter said they had forsaken everything and followed Him. Peter was asking what his reward would be for following Jesus. Jesus responded that those that followed Him would set on the thrones. Judas, obviously, did not forsake everything to follow Jesus. The statement doesn’t apply to Judas.

Luke 22, Jesus speaks of those that continued with Him in His temptations. Judas, obviously, did not continue with Jesus in His temptations. The statement doesn’t apply to Judas.

Judas didn’t lose his salvation. He was never saved.

peace to you

 

[SavedByGrace]

In Matthew 19, Jesus is answering Peter’s question. Peter said they had forsaken everything and followed Him. Peter was asking what his reward would be for following Jesus. Jesus responded that those that followed Him would set on the thrones. Judas, obviously, did not forsake everything to follow Jesus. The statement doesn’t apply to Judas.

Luke 22, Jesus speaks of those that continued with Him in His temptations. Judas, obviously, did not continue with Jesus in His temptations. The statement doesn’t apply to Judas.

Judas didn’t lose his salvation. He was never saved.

peace to you

So Jesus told an unsaved person that they would be in the new world, which is heaven?

 

[canadyjd]

So Jesus told an unsaved person that they would be in the new world, which is heaven?

The context of the the passage determines the meaning. Peter claimed they had forsaken all things to follow Jesus and ask what their reward would be for doing so.

That is the context of Jesus saying those that follow Him would sit on the thrones.

If they didn’t forsake all things and follow Him, the the statement doesn’t apply. Judas didn’t forsake all things to follow Jesus so the statement doesn’t apply and was never saved so he didn’t lose his salvation.

Same with the passage in Luke.

Scripture in context should explain it.

peace to you

 

[1689Dave]

Jesus was speaking from the point of view of the future. When the kingdom is established (in the future) you who followed Me (in the past) will set on the thrones.

Judas didn’t follow in the past from the point of view of the establishment of the kingdom, he betrayed Jesus instead.

To answer your question directly, Judas didn’t lose his salvation, he was never saved. None of the disciples were “saved” when Jesus made the statement.

The mark, or seal, of salvation is indwelling Holy Spirit. The disciples do not receive indwelling Holy Spirit until after the resurrection. John 20:19 or so. Judas was already dead at that point.

peace to you

The disciples were born-again Jews like Abraham was born-again. Faith is a fruit of that. Judas was not or he would have overcome his sin.

 

[canadyjd]

The disciples were born-again Jews like Abraham was born-again. Faith is a fruit of that. Judas was not or he would have overcome his sin.

I disagree. The disciples didn’t understand or believe what Jesus was telling them. Unlike Abraham, their “faith” failed when Jesus was arrested. They fled. Peter denied even knowing Jesus.

To be “born again” is a work of God Holy Spirit per John 3. The mark and seal of salvation is indwelling Holy Spirit. The disciples didn’t receive indwelling Holy Spirit until after the resurrection per John 20.

peace to you

 

[37818]

The disciples didn’t receive indwelling Holy Spirit until after the resurrection per John 20.

[That is one of two interpertations. The other at Pentecost Acts of the Apostles 2 per John 16:7 per Acts of the Apostles 1:8.]

 

[Silverhair]

The reference is fully given in the OP

There is no evidence in the Gospels, that Judas was not a serious follower of Jesus Christ, as he was given the same authority as the others by Jesus, and did the same as the others. Whenever he chose to betray Jesus, was when he would have ceased from his calling as a true Disciple.

Please note the words in the verse Mat 19:28 Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world,when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Would Christ Jesus have known that Judas would betray Him? YES. So when He said "you who have followed me" it would be those that were His followers at that time. This would exclude Judas. Plus none of the disciples would have been saved at that time as Christ Jesus had not been crucified as of yet.

 

[SavedByGrace]

What has also been overlooked, is the two verses from Matthew and Mark:

In Matthew 10:1, we read, “And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every affliction”

Mark 3:14, “He appointed twelve, that they might be with him, and that he might send them out to preach”

In Matthew we read, that the TWELVE DISCIPLES, were given ἐξουσία, that is "power" from the Holy Spirit, "over unclean spirits to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every affliction”. Would the Holy Spirit do any of this through somone who is unsaved?

Likewise, in Mark, again we read of the TWELVE, who were sent out the preach the Gospel. Would Jesus have given this ministry to someone who was not a saved person?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Please note the words in the verse Mat 19:28 Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world,when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Would Christ Jesus have known that Judas would betray Him? YES. So when He said "you who have followed me" it would be those that were His followers at that time. This would exclude Judas. Plus none of the disciples would have been saved at that time as Christ Jesus had not been crucified as of yet.

WHY would Jesus mention this in the hearing of the TWELVE, if, as you suggest, that it only refers to ELEVEN? Jesus actually addresses all of this to His TWELVE DISCIPLES!

 

[Silverhair]

WHY would Jesus mention this in the hearing of the TWELVE, if, as you suggest, that it only refers to ELEVEN? Jesus actually addresses all of this to His TWELVE DISCIPLES!

Please note the words in the verse Mat 19:28 Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world,when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Please note the time reference that is made. "when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne". When did that happen? Was Judas still part of the disciples? NO So he would not be part of the group that followed Christ Jesus.

Another way you can look at it is did Judas really follow Christ Jesus? He was part of the group but He did not follow Him. We have people that say they are Christians but do not really follow Christ Jesus as is evident by their lifestyle.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Please note the words in the verse Mat 19:28 Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world,when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Please note the time reference that is made. "when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne". When did that happen? Was Judas still part of the disciples? NO So he would not be part of the group that followed Christ Jesus.

Another way you can look at it is did Judas really follow Christ Jesus? He was part of the group but He did not follow Him. We have people that say they are Christians but do not really follow Christ Jesus as is evident by their lifestyle.

I am aware of what Jesus is saying here. He is referring to His Reign in the next life. You who have followed Me, in Matthew 19, includes Judas who was still following Jesus, and at this time was not planning to betray Jesus.

Jesus is not saying, that those who are following Me when I sit on My Throne, will sit with Me. No. You cannot escape the facts that Jesus addresses this to the 12, who were at this time, very much with Him.

Also, as I have said, would the Holy Spirit empower someone who is unsaved, to preform the delivering of demons, and healing of sickness? Would Jesus send out an unsaved person to preach the Gospel of salvation? To be able to preach this, they would have also required the Holy Spirit to guide them.

 

[1689Dave]

I disagree. The disciples didn’t understand or believe what Jesus was telling them. Unlike Abraham, their “faith” failed when Jesus was arrested. They fled. Peter denied even knowing Jesus.

To be “born again” is a work of God Holy Spirit per John 3. The mark and seal of salvation is indwelling Holy Spirit. The disciples didn’t receive indwelling Holy Spirit until after the resurrection per John 20.

peace to you

Many Jews were born again. The disciples had faith which comes from the New Birth. As did Abraham and those listed in Hebrews 11.

 

[1689Dave]

Many Jews were born again. The disciples had faith which comes from the New Birth. As did Abraham and those listed in Hebrews 11.

The Holy Spirit was with the born-again in most cases before Pentecost. The Holy Spirit then became present in ALL Believers.

 

[AustinC]

sure, but what I said in the OP, I repeat

The timing is very important. Had Jesus not wanted to include Judas in what He said, then He could have said what He does in Matthew 19, and Luke 22, after Judas had left the room to betray Him. However, as the facts stand, Jesus made sure that Judas was present for both events.

Jesus spoke to the TWELVE, not ELEVEN as some assume!

How does ones presence in a room make them redeemed, sbg? Many people are in the church, hearing the gospel, who are not redeemed.
The evidence from Judas life is that he never had his sins reconciled and forgiven by God. The Apostles never give any indication that Judas heart was changed or that he had been born again. Instead they reveal a habitual thief who saw Jesus as his means into wealth.

 

[SavedByGrace]

How does ones presence in a room make them redeemed, sbg? Many people are in the church, hearing the gospel, who are not redeemed.
The evidence from Judas life is that he never had his sins reconciled and forgiven by God. The Apostles never give any indication that Judas heart was changed or that he had been born again. Instead they reveal a habitual thief who saw Jesus as his means into wealth.

See # 76