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And so let me likewise be clear. I'm offended whenever I see someone presenting a god that appeals to man's sense of what he thinks is "fair" and not God's revealed "sense of" justice. A man-made god the doesn't love everyone, when Scripture demonstrates that he most certainly does. As we most...

Does this really reflect the Calvinist position? I'd ask all readers to consider a statement from John Calvin himself. "...how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission…It is a quite frivolous...

Well Dave I think you should consider that many of us do indeed understand the "Calvinist" position. We simply don't agree it lines up with scripture. And as you can well appreciate merely because one has gone over something "many times" doesn't mean they're right. Come on Dave. Swing this...

Very well put and that's something I wish our Calvinists friends would consider. In the REAL world and in a court of law it would be defined that way as well.

And I suppose if we who are of a different persuasion than you on these things allowed our flesh to rise up and become angry we too would be crossing a line that we shouldn't. Feelings of exasperation I can assure you can go both ways.

David you were talking to Rev, but I think I'd relax a little from being upset about someone calling you Bub. Some places it's considered as a sign of endearment or affection. Others use it as a form of "dude" as in "Hey Guy". I hardly think one using it deserves the charge as being what you...

Well Dave it speaks of God taking vengeance.You know vengeance is defined by many as payback, or retribution. Retribution of what? Retribution for one committing the sins according to Calvinists that the creator wanted one and ordained that one should commit all the time? So they do what he...

Holiness? Most certainly a trait which should be a top priority with all saints. Important to be careful though to know the difference between true holiness as compared to a proud condescending spirit that brings judgement on others without any regard to love, mercy or compassion.

Well Jon I'm not sure how they could have sound doctrine and believe they're saved by works. and at least what the other poster and I were talking about was can someone actually understand the gospel....yes that it's not by works, and they even understand grace but still reject it. I'd suggest...

Well I'd challenge your statement "would not be true". If they understand what's being offered to them and what's expected of them you can't say in an absolute sense the gospel was hidden from them. If you're in a dark room you might understand there's light on the other side. One can yield...

Not sure really how you can ask that? Haven't you seen many through the years which didn't deny it was true but said they don't want to give up their ungodly ways? Some have said perhaps when they get old they'll turn to God. I see nothing in cases like that which suggests they don't believe...

Well sorry Dave but I'd say you're trying to force an unnecessary interpretation onto the text. "pistis" doesn't just mean the faith of God but also a character trait of being faithful. Matt 24:45, 1 Cor 4:2, Eph 6:21 and many others all use the same greek word as well and clearly it's...

Did it say it's not possible for men to understand the gospel? Or did it rather say, "if our gospel be hid it is hid to them that are lost". What do many of the lost choose to walk in? Pride or the thought of being independent from God. Such would be willfully being ignorant which keeps them...

Nope...sorry Dave. That was talking about if ones chooses to stay a carnal Christian they would not understand the deep things of God. Carnal Christians and sinners can understand basic things of salvation but not DEEP THINGS. 1 Cor 2:10 1 Cor 3:1-3

Ha. ;) I actually do like you Dave I think you're a nice friendly guy. It does make me smile though when before leaving a thread you throw down everything you've got of Calvinists talking points on so many topics that should be other threads and leave it to Non Calvinists to dig their way out of...

Well I'd respectfully contend it does. Let's go to an analogy. We create a new league for whatever sport and we decide years before creating it just what the criteria will be for one's on it to qualify. Who these individuals are is not the issue. Whoever they'll be (the whoever in scripture)...

First I think a number of things can be said about the phrase, "hardening his heart" In current days we don't state it like this we say, "What I'm going to do is going to make that person mad." We can even say this without any real intent of wanting to make them that way but we stand our ground...

Not sure what you mean Jon by saying the ungodly serve God's purpose. Granted when sinners stand in opposition to him he may bring a judgment and lessons to others for others can spin off of that but why should you say he actually doesn't want them not to make heaven their home to serve a...

But then again don't we see that Ephesians 1 states we were chosen "In Christ". It does not say we were chosen to be In Christ. I'd suggest big difference.

And as I'm sure you're aware there are various thoughts on just what predestination means. One that it's according to God's foreknowledge not that he directs by determination Person A saved and not B.