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And I don't begrudge you your freedom to abstain. That is great. No problem. Just like if someone chooses not to own a gun, that is fine with me too. My PROBLEM is when you start telling me what is right or wrong without the authority of scripture to back you up. I've shown how the list you...

It is a sin to say its a sin to say its a sin to preach that drinking alcohol is a sin. :smilewinkgrin:

I'm sure some of the recipients of the Galatian epistle, sent by Paul, felt much the same way. I'm a bit disappointed that you didn't offer any rebuttal to this so-called 'sophisticated' arguments, but instead chose the easy way out... If you have been clothed in the righteousness of Christ...

:thumbsup: Amen! (though the phrase 'to whatever extent' could be problematic if misinterpreted or misapplied)

I think this relates closely with gun ownership and the views of liberals versus conservatives. Their are many conservatives who choose not to own or use guns, but they respect the right of others to own and use them responsibly. Liberals choose to abstain from owning guns and try to impose...

12stings, I know you didn't ask me, but I would call it sinful to preach something that is not true, even if unintentionally. There may be different levels of culpability for sins of ignorance, but it is still sin.

P.S. I could point to many passages, some I already have in the last post, but let's handle one at a time: Ecclesiastes 9:7 Go thy way , eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. Read this article:

Wow... I've copied the list and am pasting it below. I've taken the liberty to delete all the text which speak of becoming drunk or being addicted to alcohol, as we have all agreed that is unacceptable and thus those passages do not apply to our point of contention: 3) Leviticus 10:9-11 -...

I agree. Prayer is a manifestation of true faith. Operations, programs and activities of the church not flowing from relationship (prayer), and actively bathed in prayer are likely not being done in faith. And we know anything (even good things) not done in faith are sin.

And one year they conclude eggs are bad for you and the next they conclude they are good for you. I know you are merely responding to Luke's assertions regarding the health benefits, but as I've argued that is really beside the point regarding the permissibility to consume alcohol; and the...

I agree with everything you've written here, but may take issue with the one comment, "I do not believe that preaching abstinence is a sin if it is done in a Biblical manner.'' But I'm not sure what you mean by this, as you yourself said, "I don't believe that the modest consumption of alcohol...

With all due respect to Patterson, I hardly consider him a bastion of defense for my perspective. He holds to the 'foresight of faith view' after all... :(

This is a good honest question for discussion! :thumbsup: I agree with Adam Clarke, who wrote: "To foreknow, here signifies to design before, or at the first forming of the scheme; to bestow the favour and privilege of being God's people upon any set of men, Romans xi. 2. This is the...

So, what's the answer to those 5% who abuse alcohol? Outlaw, shame, condemn alcohol for everyone (like liberals want to do with guns)? OR Condemn the abuse, warn against abuse, punish the abusers, and promote responsibility. I pick the biblical approach, which is the second.

And if an effectual work applied only to the elect is ANY PART of "shining" then how does your use of that word help draw a distinction in regard to our discussion?

Hopefully so. I'd love to discuss it with him because I think he might actually form an argument and contribute to a healthy discussion.

There are several problems with Mohler's argument here. (1) If his system of thinking is correct, we are only 'thinking' what God has preordained us to think, thus if we think we are capable to respond to God's appeal then that is because its the way God made us to think, so why is he acting as...

Apparently I need to because even Calvin affirmed God's love for all of mankind. But, if something I've said is misrepresentative then spell it out, because the only real WILL in your framework is God's, so what I've said seems pretty accurate.

I wouldn't care if you did because I stopped caring about gaining man's approval when I began walking in freedom! ;) Romans 8:1 is a very freeing passage...along with many more. :godisgood: :laugh: I wouldn't call what I've experienced 'numbing,' but that is for another discussion.

ALSO... Personally, I think the health issue is irrelevant to the question of permissibility. I drink occasionally, but not for my health. I enjoy it. It makes me feel 'merry' and relaxed. Just as some feel energized by coffee. My wife and I will partake on romanic evenings and it helps to...