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This is just incorrect. This is ONLY a problem when people overly individualize the concept of election. The ordo salutes is: election of Israel to bring redemption to the rest of the world through Christ and His message which is told by individually chosen prophets, priests, kings and...

I think everyone is making this much too difficult. NO ONE, whether rich poor or middle class can save themselves. That is indeed impossible. But, as Jesus just said one chapter earlier, "With faith all things are possible." It is a given FACT according to scripture AND human experience...

Doesn't Jesus' teaching regarding how we cannot serve two masters help understand the clear intent of this text? Why did the rich young ruler turn and walk away after expressing a desire to follow Jesus? "Because he was a man of great means." He had a lot to loose. And when he considered the...

Amy, You are one of the best woman preachers I know! :) and I couldn't agree more with your advice. Seekingthetruth, if you insist on coming to a debate forum you might choose more carefully the people you interact with on this subject. Use the ignore feature and only discuss things with...

That verse is not talking about moral evil (sin). It's about natural calamity (i.e. earthquakes etc).

I know it is difficult to see a passage from a different perspective when you have become so accustom to reading it from your own perspective, so let's use an analogy to gain a different perspective: Pretend with me that we live before the Civil War and we are all slave owners. We have been...

Please know, that those of us who hold to the 'corporate' view of election aren't attempting to deny that the corporate entities are made up of individuals. In fact, we don't deny that the individuals are personally affected by God's election. Israel was elected to bring redemption to the...

While still a weak answer in my opinion I think this is the strongest of all the answers to these arguments. At least it honestly acknowledges the 'difficulty' and addresses the argument instead of pretending it doesn't exist, as some do. I still think this undermines the most obvious...

Yeah, because we know you always stay right on topic. :rolleyes: Just answer the question. How do you know a false prophet from a real prophet (bad tree or good tree)? By their deeds/teachings (fruits). That it the question Jesus is answering when speaking of the parable of good/bad...

That is great. But not near as common as I'm sure you know. No one would deny that. God is certainly in the business of seeking and saving that which is lost. Many are turned off by the perceived hypocrisy of religious organizations etc, but yes there are many who through times of...

I agree that pride can be found in all classes of people, but according to this text and others those who are rich, wise, learned (by the worlds standard) have greater issues to overcome in this regard for obvious reasons. Children on the other hand are used as an example of humility and...

He can't answer this question. If he does it destroys his view. If he answers "God" then he clearly contradicts scriptures teaching regarding God's holiness. And if he answers "man" then he has to admit that man has the ability to originate evil intent making his view of deterministic...

Its all perspective. Just a chapter before Jesus said, "With faith all things are possible." But does that suggest that one can be saved apart from God? Of course not. The point is that there are some things which hinder someone humbling accepting that they need help, and need to believe in...

Strong argument there, Luke. ;) I don't think you made a case for the problems being the same, so I guess we are even. :thumbsup: As I stated, which you just dismissed, I concede that if one accepts the typical God 'foreknows and permits all things view' of the 'Arminian' (which I also...

Well, you kind of left during the middle of our 'hashing.' :smilewinkgrin: I responded showing you why your argument is a fallacy and how it our 'problem' GREATLY differs from yours back on posts 122 and 125. You never replied...

We all affirm the need of God's intervention, but we are disagreeing as to ones response to God's appeal to be reconciled. A rich, educated, successful man, one who may be serving the master of mammon, may be less willing to 'humble himself' and leave that master. Where as the prostitute who...

There is a function called the "ignore list" for those who resort to such things. It makes for a much more pleasant experience here. :)

jb, Calvinists would never actually say God is choosing himself or rejecting himself. Granted, it ultimately is God's doing in their system, but they would never say that. They would say that God regenerates the heart causing them to have a new desire to come to Christ (i.e. God causing...

I believe we have to be careful not to commit the all too common debate fallacy of 'tradition labeling.' This is where one labels someone by some known traditional view (i.e. "Pelagianism" or "Hyperism") and then dismisses their arguments all together as being 'heretical' and not worthy of...

There you go again, making unfounded and undocumented claims. Point to the thread and post where this happened? I am supposed to close all threads that get to a certain page limit (as per the rules given to me), so to suggest I'm running from your baseless fallacies is laughable. I can be...